Dragon Age 2: Lessons to learn : V - Skyrim

» Tue May 10, 2011 10:57 pm

Another huge flaw in pretty much all of Biowares recent games: You can't be evil. You can hurt your party members "feelings" and do generally mean stuff, but in no way is this comparable to a moral dilemma.

i strongly disagree. maybe you cant be a pure evil character in a childrens fairytale kind of way, the kind of character thats evil just for the sake of providing a very 'black and white' story

but you can be a very selfish and self centered character which is more realistic and more enjoyable

» Wed May 11, 2011 12:20 am

Aaand you thought posting this topic on the official Bethesda forums would what, yield a fair and balanced discussion about how you think a different game is superior? Er, yeah. This thread was pretty much made for lockin'.

Edit: For the record, listing off the many flaws of Dragon Age 2 is hardly "bashing" it. I'll give you an example. Assuming you have a copy of the game check out Varric's brothers mansion. Now, check out the mansion of the Tevinter Imperium magister where Fenris resides.

Notice how most every dresser/painting/table is in exactly the same place. That, my friend, is merely one example of how lazy they were when they slapped that mess together.

» Wed May 11, 2011 3:27 am

Concerning black/white and gray sides: Morrowind did it right. Oblivion did it wrong.

Spoiler

There, Dagoth Ur looked like the real bad guy. But in the end, the Tribunal, the supposedly good guys, was the cause of everything. Still, there was lots of room for your own speculation and thinking of why this happened.

So many years ago I played Morrowind, I'm still amazed by the story in it and how it progressed. I hope Skyrim will be the same.

So, there should be a "Morrowind: Lessons to learn" thread instead, I'd say. That's more likely that Bethesda would follow than DA2.

Exactly. In Oblivion it was just "Dagon baaaaaad! Martin gooooooood (even though he's a complete [censored] who doesn't appreciate anything you do for him)"

So, more morally gray stuff. I hope they play on the whole relationship between Akatosh and Alduin, with an ambiguous ending

» Wed May 11, 2011 3:52 am

Aaand you thought posting this topic on the official Bethesda forums would what, yield a fair and balanced discussion about how you think a different game is superior? Er, yeah. This thread was pretty much made for lockin'.

1) Yes
2) That doesn't say anything about me but about the people I tried to have "a fair and balanced discussion about how you think a different game is superior".
3) I never even implied that DA2 is superior in the 1st place! Just on the story part. Read 1st sentence, 1st post....
4) You didn't answer my point.

Edit: For the record, listing off the many flaws of Dragon Age 2 is hardly "bashing" it. I'll give you an example. Assuming you have a copy of the game check out Varric's brothers mansion. Now, check out the mansion of the Tevinter Imperium magister where Fenris resides.

Notice how most every dresser/painting/table is in exactly the same place. That, my friend, is merely one example of how lazy they were when they slapped that mess together.

You won't find me arguing on that. I know that they have been lazy and just copy pasted a lot of stuff everywhere. I'm talking about the story though. I never said DA2 was a great game.

» Tue May 10, 2011 8:23 pm

OK, so you have to play a male or female human. The difference is pretty minor, especially if you like replaying the game. I really got a kick out of trying out all the various game beginnings with DA Origins and seeing how the story changed because of your race.

That is one thing I'd love to see in Skyrim, though I won't lose any sleep over if it can't be added, but story tweaks, beyond abilities or stat boosts, for different races and or sixes would be fun. I always thought that there should be at least some reaction by the Dunmer to the Neravarine being a Khajiit or Argonian....

» Tue May 10, 2011 7:10 pm

So supposedly you are a Beth dev. Your last TES game was Oblivion.

You can't see anything done better in DA2? You didn't like how the main plot was told (with Varric being the Narrator and all)? How about the whole Qunari thing in Act 2? Not interested?

What were the moral choices you offered to the player in Oblivion? Seems to me there is a lesson to learn

That's the problem here : the plot being told. TES is completely open, you don't have to do the main quest, or any quests at all if you do not choose to, there will still be something to do.
But Bioware games have a definite plot progression, and your moral choices and the relationships etc. are pretty much confined to certain points in the narrative. Beth really can't learn plot lessons, if the narrative is so strong it leads the player character's actions, they simply do not make that kind of game. The 'Do anything, go anywhere' ethos is perhaps unavoidably damaging to the storytelling aspect.

» Wed May 11, 2011 3:22 am

- Not open world
- Very scripted
- No emergent gameplay (if it's not explicitly programmed it can't be done)

So it was a normal style RPG, and not an open world RPG. Don't see a problem here, those are two different styles of game with different goals. :shrug:

The so-called "moral choices" Bioware's famous for are usually anything but. In ME 1/2 you could be a bit of a [censored]. That's it.

Of course, ME1/2 were never designed as good/evil games.... you're always going to be The Hero, but how do you go about it? Jack Bauer or Aragorn? (and yeah - not all the choices in ME1/2 were major. But things like how you dealt with the Rachni in part 1 were meaningful.)

» Tue May 10, 2011 12:39 pm

Aaand you thought posting this topic on the official Bethesda forums would what, yield a fair and balanced discussion about how you think a different game is superior? Er, yeah. This thread was pretty much made for lockin'.

And this prevents it from being locked how? On topic, There are things that BGS could take from other games to improve itself. And I don't mean take as in copy paste over I mean draw inspiration from. I do think the whole shades of grey thing is a dated anology. Paint the world as a multicolored masterpiece. There is black and white, there are shades of grey, but there are all the other hues and shades that need to be included. Really stupid metaphor aside everyone has a motive and a goal, and I would like to see that more. Like in the Bravil MG Recommendation quest. You have to find a stolen staff and you find out who did it, you would think that it was someone against the MG or at least an enemy of the victim but it was actually someone who liked her. He was just doing it wrong.

So basically I want to see what people are doing and be able to learn why.

» Tue May 10, 2011 7:19 pm

So, the point of these dialogue options in either game are to define your character as a "badass" or a nice fella? Then, in the midst of all this being nice/abrasive stuff, you make a decision that has no real effect beyond what your companions/other people think about it. Once you beat ME or DA what are you left with?

Certainly not the desire to replay it merely to achieve a slightly different outcome. The main thing fans of these games preach is replayability when in fact, the plot variates very little no matter what you do. I got the feeling playing each of these games and their sequels that they were merely set ups for the third game in each franchise. Problem is, each of them absolutely svck as standalone games.

» Wed May 11, 2011 12:21 am

So supposedly you are a Beth dev. Your last TES game was Oblivion.

You can't see anything done better in DA2? You didn't like how the main plot was told (with Varric being the Narrator and all)? How about the whole Qunari thing in Act 2? Not interested?

What were the moral choices you offered to the player in Oblivion? Seems to me there is a lesson to learn

You can't see anything done better in DA2? = Its hard to say as they are different games despite them both being fantasy. I suppose if Bethesda worked more on the main story quest line, comparing it to the quality of DA, ME 1 & 2 then yeah, the elder scrolls would be a slightly better game. But DA2? The only thing I like about DA2 is the improved combat system. Apart from that, they did everything else worse, even the story.

You didn't like how the main plot was told (with Varric being the Narrator and all)? = An interesting idea for DA2 but would not work for Skyrim. If they did something like this in Skyrim, it will break the immersive feel.

How about the whole Qunari thing in Act 2? = not sure what you mean by this in terms of improving Skyrim so cant answer.

Not interested? = I think a lot of people don’t like DA2 because it dropped RPG elements for a flashier console focused casual game. Go on amazon reviews and you will see the console versions of the game are rated higher than the PC versions. If there is one thing I want Bethesda to learn from DA2 is DONT purely make it for consoles and DONT make it an all action, reduced RPG game.

» Tue May 10, 2011 4:50 pm

That's the problem here : the plot being told. TES is completely open, you don't have to do the main quest, or any quests at all if you do not choose to, there will still be something to do.
But Bioware games have a definite plot progression, and your moral choices and the relationships etc. are pretty much confined to certain points in the narrative. Beth really can't learn plot lessons, if the narrative is so strong it leads the player character's actions, they simply do not make that kind of game. The 'Do anything, go anywhere' ethos is perhaps unavoidably damaging to the storytelling aspect.

Varric narrates your "deeds" after you have done them, so there isn't a freedom limiting factor here (in terms of what path you take). I like "a definite plot progression, and your moral choices and the relationships etc. are pretty much confined to certain points in the narrative". Oblivion didn't have any of that stuff, no real relationships, no consequences. The "do anything, go anywhere" is 100% compatible with a gripping interesting main plot. The story being told by Varric is simply a storytelling mechanic. It can be easily taken out with no real consequences.

» Wed May 11, 2011 1:51 am

First of all I'll say that TES games are a lot better than the Dragon Age series in general. It's obvious where Dragon Age is lacking compared to TES:
- Not open world
- Very scripted
- No emergent gameplay (if it's not explicitly programmed it can't be done)

It's not fair to put lore up there as DA is a much younger series.

However I feel that DA did some things better:
- Meaningful moral choices with consequences
- Mature-ish gripping story
- Your choices are referenced even to the sequel DA2 (not very important I know, but still a nice touch)
- Multitude of effects with believable visual counterparts and combinations of spells, not known a priori, that really do damage

I'm not gonna put battles requiring tactics in that list either as in TES you don't have companions.

Now with a probable M rating for Skyrim, I think that Beth doesn't really have any constraints holding its creativity. Fallout improved on this department so I have my hopes pretty high. Give us meaningful moral choices: "Kill him and you won't get that. Let him survive and the bunny dies". You want to be a saint? Ok but be prepared for a much harder path to wealth. Be a villain and your infamy makes everyone hate you. I expect serious crime in the large cities and the ability to work with it or against it...

History is written by the winners. What if they don't like you? They can make your life hard by spreading lies about you and make you sound like a villain.

Give us political intrigues. Paint the world in shades of grey not in black and white. No person should be pure good/bad. Force us to pick a side. Don't just tell us "Ok these are the bad guys, kill them". Don't be afraid to kill off characters that the player might have liked. Even better, give us the guilt that we actually caused it!

I'm sure that all the above have already been said countless times, but I really believe that these things are what make RPGs great.

Your thoughts?

Keep DA2 far, far, far, far away from anything ES. Please.

Moral choices. What difference does the "choices" with Anders make? What difference does the "choices" with the templars make? The only thing I noticed is the railroading into choices the story required.

I would like to see the factions and the reputation for factions handled better than in Oblivion. Expand on what was already done in Morrowind; there was tension between the Houses, and stuff going on behind the scenes in the Guilds. With a civil war, the remains of the Blades, the Greybeards and other issues there might be enough interesting things going on. I hope so.

» Wed May 11, 2011 2:50 am

You can't see anything done better in DA2? = Its hard to say as they are different games despite them both being fantasy. I suppose if Bethesda worked more on the main story quest line, comparing it to the quality of DA, ME 1 & 2 then yeah, the elder scrolls would be a slightly better game. But DA2? The only thing I like about DA2 is the improved combat system. Apart from that, they did everything else worse, even the story.

You didn't like how the main plot was told (with Varric being the Narrator and all)? = An interesting idea for DA2 but would not work for Skyrim. If they did something like this in Skyrim, it will break the immersive feel.

How about the whole Qunari thing in Act 2? = not sure what you mean by this in terms of improving Skyrim so cant answer.

Not interested? = I think a lot of people don’t like DA2 because it dropped RPG elements for a flashier console focused casual game. Go on amazon reviews and you will see the console versions of the game are rated higher than the PC versions. If there is one thing I want Bethesda to learn from DA2 is DONT purely make it for consoles and DONT make it an all action, reduced RPG game.

Yes they are 2 different games but not so much different as to prevent meaningful comparisons to be made. They are both RPGs after all. RPGs to me at least, are about freedom. TES gets freedom on so many aspects but not so much on the quests. DA/DA2 don't get freedom on everything else but the story. They have mediocre gameplay but still the story made it fun to play for me. Imagine what a good story can do to an already great game series.

It's not a take it all or leave it all kind of deal. You can get parts of DA and not be afraid that the whole game will turn into a mutated TES/DA hybrid. I can't see how mature themes and meaningful choices can't be incorporated in Skyrim. And that means no good guys/bad guys. That means motives and goals for everyone. In the end you'll always be the hero, but what kind of hero?

You didn't like how the main plot was told (with Varric being the Narrator and all)? = An interesting idea for DA2 but would not work for Skyrim. If they did something like this in Skyrim, it will break the immersive feel.

On second thought I agree with you on this one.

How about the whole Qunari thing in Act 2? = not sure what you mean by this in terms of improving Skyrim so cant answer.

I mean how you were asked who to side with. It wasn't an obvious situation.

» Tue May 10, 2011 3:22 pm

Varric narrates your "deeds" after you have done them, so there isn't a freedom limiting factor here (in terms of what path you take). I like "a definite plot progression, and your moral choices and the relationships etc. are pretty much confined to certain points in the narrative". Oblivion didn't have any of that stuff, no real relationships, no consequences. The "do anything, go anywhere" is 100% compatible with a gripping interesting main plot. The story being told by Varric is simply a storytelling mechanic. It can be easily taken out with no real consequences.

Personally, I like the Bioware games, but you are limited to achieving the main quest by different methods. I have no problem with that, ME 1 is imho a wonderful game, but in TES, I like to tell my own story, and use my imagination, and Bethesda games are the perfect medium for this type of role playing experience. We do not yet know how Skyrim's main quest pans out, or how well it is written, but I fully intend to ignore it as long as I like. Although both company's games have the usual 'save the world' that is traditional for rpgs, TES gives you an empty canvas to a much greater degree, you can choose to live up in the mountains and only come to the same town to trade, or be an Argonian who desires to kill every Dunmer he comes across, the choice is yours, you can tell your own story. This is not possible in DA, you can affect the flow of events, but they will flow regardless of the 'weighty' decisions you make.

» Tue May 10, 2011 2:39 pm

One of the major gripes I have with DA 2 is the fac tthat you can't gear up your companions, this is possibly one of the worst descisions Bioware has made. Also, as Brood said, having DLC avaliable on the day of release is a big nono. Infact just don't do DLC at all, and do a proper expansion or two

Completely agree with this one. Day one paid DLC just seems......wrong somehow. Like they specifically made parts of the game to nickel and dime you out of more money. Expansion packs really need to come back.

» Tue May 10, 2011 9:49 pm

Keep DA2 far, far, far, far away from anything ES. Please.

Moral choices. What difference does the "choices" with Anders make? What difference does the "choices" with the templars make? The only thing I noticed is the railroading into choices the story required.

I would like to see the factions and the reputation for factions handled better than in Oblivion. Expand on what was already done in Morrowind; there was tension between the Houses, and stuff going on behind the scenes in the Guilds. With a civil war, the remains of the Blades, the Greybeards and other issues there might be enough interesting things going on. I hope so.

While playing DA2 I was in a frame of mind that my choices mattered. Maybe that's what counts after all. For example:

Spoiler

Having your mother die, out of the blue, was really unexpected. I got the feeling that had I not killed the prime suspect she would survive.

As for the templars and Anders: I had chosen a mage, who also used blood magic. So I was of the opinion that blood magic is just another form of magic that people fear because of how powerful it is. It wasn't inherently evil. It turned evil because lesser mages got to use it. I mean I used it constantly and was 100% ok.
Wait... The game actually made me have an opinion about an in game matter! I don't know if it's just me getting easily carried away, but the game, however its many flaws, accomplished immersion. That has to count for something.

TES has freedom inherently. It has a much much bigger potential to make choices feel like they matter. And yes it has plenty of material to draw difficult choices from.

» Wed May 11, 2011 12:10 am

DA Origins did have some moral choices that made a difference in the later game. You could, for instance decide that the entire Dalish band was guilty of cursing the werewolves and have them destroyed to get the werewolves on your side. You also had the choice of knowing you've condemned a lot of dwarfs to being tortured to produce golems and sided with a very unpleasant female dwarf, or not having golems to help you at the endgame.

Then there's the Morrigan pregnancy question, the Tern Loghain or Alistair question and a bunch of others, They were morally ambiguous unlike the difference between being a Dark Brotherhood member or Lord Commander of the Knights of the Nine. (I'm both at the moment. It gets confusing sometimes.)

I have no idea whether DAII has anything like this, but, again it is something that Skyrim might benefit from to add some (more) depth to player character.

» Wed May 11, 2011 1:50 am

I mean how you were asked who to side with. It wasn't an obvious situation.

Choices are good in all quests and situations. I would like Bethesda to have more choices on how to complete certain quests. It’s interesting that you brought up the fact that Bioware games gives more RPG freedom through their story while the elder scrolls gives freedom in nearly everything else. That’s a very good point I have not thought of before and would make Skyrim a brilliant game if they can finally make quests more flexible.

But I would use your point to compare the original Dragon Age and see what features from that could make Skyrim better. DA2 though.... it was a let down to the fans of RPG, but that’s just my opinion. + the fact that Skyrim will slaughter it in terms of ratings when it comes out.

» Tue May 10, 2011 3:17 pm

Personally, I like the Bioware games, but you are limited to achieving the main quest by different methods. I have no problem with that, ME 1 is imho a wonderful game, but in TES, I like to tell my own story, and use my imagination, and Bethesda games are the perfect medium for this type of role playing experience. We do not yet know how Skyrim's main quest pans out, or how well it is written, but I fully intend to ignore it as long as I like. Although both company's games have the usual 'save the world' that is traditional for rpgs, TES gives you an empty canvas to a much greater degree, you can choose to live up in the mountains and only come to the same town to trade, or be an Argonian who desires to kill every Dunmer he comes across, the choice is yours, you can tell your own story. This is not possible in DA, you can affect the flow of events, but they will flow regardless of the 'weighty' decisions you make.

You're right. You can't do anything but the main plot in DA:O/DA2. It forces you to go on with the plot. In TES you can do anything you like from the start and don't have to worry about any quest. However I'm talking about the quality of the plot here. Quests have the unique ability to draw you in the game world. A TES without quests would just be an empty husk. No purpose.
TES has a flow of events too, it is just not forced on you. DA and Mass Effect games are really just that flow. TES is much more but that doesn't mean that it can't improve on its flow.

» Wed May 11, 2011 6:19 am

I've never played Dragon Age 2, was enough for me to play the demo to see the s*** that the game would be. And for those who think that the Dragon Age 2 is an RPG, think again.

» Tue May 10, 2011 6:18 pm

I'm not a fan of dragon age at all. I never completed the game. Just lost interest.
I hated the lack of freedom,hated how you had companions,hate baby sitting them,unless it's a choice,companions should be optional...it's not everyone's cup of tea.
I will not be buying dragon age 2....it will never ,ever be in the same class as elder scrolls. Some of my friends bought dragon age 2,and didn't like it......Morrowind is better than both those games,that says it all really,as is oblivion.

About some of you saying bethesda can learn about story telling from DAO,i say no,not at all. Morrowind had a great story/main quest,i thought oblivion did too.Also we ( as players ) can make our own stories up too,because we are free to do whatever,where-ever. Dragon age as one goal...follow the main story ( and that alone ) and complete the game. Bethesda/the elder scrolls gives you way more options. If anyone needs to learn,people should look at bethesda. They take their time making games instead of pumping crap out year upon year. Keep dragon age WELL away from the elder scrolls.

» Tue May 10, 2011 2:46 pm

I was critical of DA2 after seeing the first pics and learning that they'd jettisoned nearly everything from the first game. Turns out many of the fans' fears were well founded.

Design by committee if you ask me.

» Tue May 10, 2011 9:19 pm

Dragon Age is one of the best games i ever played so yeah, im hoping it did influence skyrim devs

» Tue May 10, 2011 10:45 pm

It's a question of expectations. I want to play ME3 partly to see how the story pans out, I was disappointed that the skills and customisation/looting were butchered from ME1 to ME2, but that won't stop me buying it, I have to know.
TES, and Fallout, are a different breed, sure it would be nice to have multiple paths for each guild questline, and the multiple factions in New Vegas were a pleasant surprise, but they are not totally necessary, especially when not joining a guild is a choice which still leaves a lot of game to be played ( it took me several playthroughs to even consider joining the Dark Brotherhood ).
The bottom line is Bioware games need good writing and emotional involvement, especially as regards your party members, if they are present in TES, it's an icing on the cake situation, very welcome, but, to me at least, good writing will always be part of the background of my character's own story.

» Wed May 11, 2011 12:24 am

So supposedly you are a Beth dev. Your last TES game was Oblivion.

You can't see anything done better in DA2? You didn't like how the main plot was told (with Varric being the Narrator and all)? How about the whole Qunari thing in Act 2? Not interested?

What were the moral choices you offered to the player in Oblivion? Seems to me there is a lesson to learn

The main plot was told within a framed narrative. I could write you an essay about the positives and negatives of that choice, but it simply wouldn't work for an open-world game like Skyrim. A device Oblivion simply didn't have or need, not a superior one. Not relevant.

If Bethesda have lessons to learn about "moral choices," story and plot progression -- and they may indeed -- then I hope they're taking them not from the pretentious, juvenile mess that is DA2, but from the many excellent examples of those things in various other media. If we must name a developer, Obsidian Entertainment might not be a bad place to start.