That's what I say as well. How can such a person be a good king? He can't, that's how. As I said, the only reason why Bhelen turns out to be a better choice is because it's fantasy and for the sake of an "ONOZ!" plot twist.

And once again, your character has no idea how to tell if Bhelen's really a murderer, or if Harrowmont is really all that better. And all initial signs point to the former having a plan of action to improve the city in mind, while the latter is a bumbling idiot unfit for the position he's gunning for. Never mind that Orzammar, as she is, is not a pleasant place to live anyway. The nobility are constantly conspiring against each other and even manipulate the lower castes to play their pointless political games. Trade, which is the lifeblood of Orzammar's prosperity, is too heavily and pointlessly restricted. Crime is up because the majority of Casteless have to resort to it just to survive. And the Darkspawn are literally on the doorstep. That's what staying the course has done for Orzammar, and that's what Harrowmont is all about.


When does he lie? When he tells you about the threat the Darkspawn represent? No, can't be. If you're a non-Dwarven noble, that's all he talks about, and we all know he's honest about that. The subject concerning his brothers never comes up, unless you happen to BE his brother...in which case, he's still quite brutally honest with you.


And how does a man who lets things stagnate make a good king? He can't, that's how. Bhelen does not make a better king because of fantasy and "ONOZ!" plots, he makes a better king because he GETS [censored] DONE to improve his city-state's standing. All Harrowmont does is stand aside letting her downward spiral continue unhindered.

If Ferelden is a place where we're going to put people who are so hungry for power that they want to murder people for it on the throne just because they GET [censored] DONE, then that's not a place where I don't want for me or anyone else to live. :shrug: Consequently, if any part of the real world is like that, I don't want to live there either. And yes, he does make a better king only because BioWare decided to write such a story. If such a murderous power-hungry person ever got the throne or some other means of political or other power and authority anywhere in the world I assure you, there is not a chance in hell anything good would ever come from that (and things like that have happened in the past, I know - I've lived through the consequences). A person who wants to get the authority so he can try to do good for his people/community/nation is not a person who murders to get the hold of the authority and gaining power can either not affect a person or change them for the worse, so there is absolutely no way that Bhelen would transform from the type of person which he is to a type of person which would make a good king (and those two types are not the same) just because he became the king. It doesn't work that way. In real life. In fantasy, it apparently does.

He’ll have to if it’s the only way. Orzammar society not only doesn’t accept change easily, but it will swiftly remove anyone who dares to go against the grain. The politicians are absolutely cutthroat and will not hesitate to remove anyone deemed a threat to their power; even King Endrin is implied to have killed his brother to get his position (like father, like son). The aristocracy is so absolutely decadent and treacherous that the only way for anyone to get a foothold in the power structure is to be an even better player in the game of Dwarven politics.

And “a person who wants to get the authority so he can try to do good for his people/community/nation is not a person who murders?” Please. Why do you think wars, rebellions, and assassinations happen in the first place, in both our world and Bioware’s? Because things never happen without resistance. Everyone has their own vision of how things should be, and will do everything they can to maintain it should it suit them. Whether they’re right or wrong, the only way to overturn them in short order is by force. “Doesn’t work in real life?” That’s the only way it ever can work.

‘Sides, now you’re assuming that I’m assuming that Bhelen did it all out of the goodness of his heart. I’ll be the first to tell you he probably didn’t, and that power is his first and last concern. But even you would agree that in order to accomplish that, it’s well in his interests to make Orzammar a stronger city-state, no? All of the goals that he’s set on, such as bolstering the military (by allowing the previously unemployable Casteless to enlist), using it to retake lost territory, and increasing trade all do EXACTLY THAT. None of these are out of the question for the most Machiavellian of leaders. Nothing changes about Bhelen after he becomes king at all.

Hell, and while we’re at it, once again, we don’t even know if he murdered his brothers. It’s fully possible, in the DN origin, for Bhelen to not do a damn thing but whisper a few words in their ears. That can be more than enough to send both the DN and Trian at each other’s throats, proving that they themselves were both nothing more than another pair of paranoid power-mongers.

But if you’re just going to attribute Bhelen’s ending to “bad fantasy writing,” and use that to ignore all of the extenuating circumstances within the plot and setting that don’t exist in our world, then I’m afraid there’s nothing else we can talk about.

Well, seems like the first real patch(1.02) is out.

Check http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/300/index/7048410 for the included fixes.

I had a chance to help beta test this patch and I can confirm that it is best to start a new savegame.

Some of the bugged issues get "baked in" to your old savegame and are not fixed retroactively, like quest bugs and the Thumbs Up / Maker's Sigh bugs.

The dev team is working on fixes for Patch 1.03 that work retroactively on older save games.

"Lunch makes everything better!" "Oh look, I have cheese!"

http://www.deviantart.com/download/183604577/da_alistair__s_cheese_by_bluelagoon4-d31ba75.jpg

Awesome.

I just hope there is not glitched trophies this time.

Of course, you are assuming that those things have a positive impact on dwarven society. There are plenty of historical examples of leaders who did those things, and only the wealthy few benefitted while the common people continued to suffer. Then there are the historical leaders who did those things, and due to their own power-mad ways brought ruin to their nations after the initial prosperity. Who is to say that Bhelen wouldn't use murder squads made of loyal Casteless (who adore him for giving them some measure of legitimacy and wealth) to slaughter anyone who has ideas he doesn't like? There's nothing in his personality that would stop him, and no element in dwarven society that could. And, of course, that has never happened in real life.

On the flip side, you are assuming that Harrowmont is a disaster, rather than a mediocre leader who keeps a lid on things until a great leader comes along. These kinds of people are occasionally the best available option. Besides, you can't force social progress, it has to move along at its own rate. Look at slavery in the US: Lincoln declared an end to it in 1865, but the plight of former slaves was actually much worse for some time afterwards, and they didn't achieve lasting success at gaining equality until a hundred years later. The Casteless will eventually earn their place in society, and Harrowmont, being a weak leader, is actually an opportunity to lay down a foundation. Change doesn't happen under his rule, but it might begin.

Why? Why wouldn't any of Bhelen's actions benefit the majority? By enlisting the Casteless and sending after the Darkspawn, he tackles several problems at once. He reduces the crime rate (since they no longer need to rely on crime to survive), reduces the population, and increases the strength of the military. He then uses said strengthened military to recapture lost thaigs in the Deep Roads, beating back the Darkspawn, getting access to additional mines and resources, and creating a buffer between the Darkspawn and Orzammar making the city more secure. And improving trade brings more money in, which can further help in their war effort and increase everyone's standard of living, while improving foreign relations. In the end, his actions benefit the Casteless (who can now seek some form of employment when before they had nothing), the Warriors (granted, they don't like the Casteless, but more numbers to hold back the Darkspawn are a boon nonetheless), and the merchants, smiths, and artisans (who have more people to hawk their wares to). The only ones who ultimately suffer are the nobles, since they end up losing some power as Orzammar's government becomes more centralized. And being as they were mostly a bunch of treacherous, backstabbing, corrupt incompetents, I'm not sympathetic. At all.

When will the Casteless earn their place in society? 100 years from Origins? 200? Is there even going to be an Orzammar by then? The Casteless have been there for the past thousand years, and the city has only ever been getting weaker since then. The Dwarves have had plenty of time to adapt to their situation ever since their empire crumbled and they lost the Anvil, but they have continued to abide by the old traditions they had when they were at the height of their power. And it's killing them, and they may not have much time left. Which means some fairly more drastic actions need to be undertaken sooner rather than later. Two things are going to happen before the Casteless "earn their place," however the hell you expect them to do that; either Orzammar's going to be overrun by the Darkspawn, or the Casteless will grow so numerous that they'll rebel (fertility rates in the upper echelons are dwindling, after all). No, the issue can't continue to be ignored, it needs to be addressed, because it's not just going to go away. Besides, Bhelen's actions aren't that drastic anyway; he's not giving them full rights, he's just letting them enlist. The caste system is still in full effect and Casteless still exist, but it does set a precedent for future social reform. Harrowmont and the Assembly have no plans to lay down any such foundation, and they never do; they're intent on maintaining the status quo.

You say to wait for a good leader? I say: "why wait?" Bhelen's your good leader right there. So he's done some questionable things. Show me a historical leader who hasn't, and I'll show you someone who had a svckup for a biographer.

And for the record, if you put Harrowmont on the throne and give him the Anvil...then his rule is a disaster. He quarantines the Casteless in Dust Town, and when they predictably rebel, he crushes them with the Golems. Then, he refuses to give Branka more dwarves to turn into Golems, so she in turn raids the surface for suitable bodies, which eventually leads the surface to retaliate against Orzammar. Ooops.

:rofl: I am so going to do this.

Wow that's pretty bad for Harrowmount. I always thought he was the good choice but nope he's just another typical Dwarf ruler. I always pick Bhelan but then again he's not the nicest dwarf on the block.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/248/3/8/da2___comb_by_aimo-d2y2892.jpg

^_^
*sigh*
Now that makes me wish they had a lot more time. Again. I'd very liked to have more scenes that played out a little like Varric's quest in Act 2. They didn't nearly use their framework enough.

Could someone in a PM send their thoughts about DA2?
I mostly want from people who loved DAO and to hear both negative and positive things about it.
From the information I've gathered about DA2 it seems like it's an awful sequel in terms of gameplay.
Just wondering if the story is alright.
Might just play through it just for that if it's any good.
But Yahtzees review ain't exactly making me hold my breath.


I think she'd give you a rash though, maybe she's poison ivy. D:

It's in my opinion this:

Take DA:O cut out all the origins but human noble, add in tons of "Micheal bay effect" action along with b movie kung fu "flying on wires" fighting. classes and equipment is now on an extremely narrow path. So you'll not be able to give everyone bows (restricted to rogue class) it's even so bad as I can say with perfect accuracy, is Hawke isn't a rogue and you don't have the bonus content and have Sebastian, ALL BOWS in the game are unusable! companions have very little customization of equipment. Swords are restricted to "weapon and shield" abilities. Dual weapons is a rogue only ability and it's restricted to daggers only. So no dual wielding swords or sword and axe or any other combination. It very much now a "pick one style and your stuck with one type of attack/weapon for the rest of the game. Kill animations are gone, now you have [censored] body explosions where all the bodies joints seem to eject themselves off each other in huge ball of blood and tumble to the ground like so much falling sticks.

Certain ability trees and classes are extremely powerful compared to others that are extremely worthless. Example my rogue femhawke beat the game 4 whole hours faster then my mage. I picked dual and assassin trees and was able to terminate the bosses with extreme ease while my mage with spirit, force and arcane tree's was barely able to contribute to the battles. with mages if you don't stick to the elemental tree you pretty much are ineffective in battle, in my experience. Yatzee line about "parachute corps" enemy battle is true most boss battles consist on a boss and a few minions and then more spawn in periodically until you kill the boss. the boss isn't particularly tough otherwise. compared to what you can see in DA:O.

The story was ok, but suffered from the "epicness" problems you see in for example FO3's plot. The end battle had me face palming, because of how they worked the battle. You can youtube the end battle if you really want to see it. you also see that the weapons got even MORE animeish that DA:O with 2-h swords and hammers taking on qualities of FF proportions.
For example
http://playstation3.files.wordpress.com/2005/12/cloud.jpg
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Hayder%27s_Razor

many of the handles on them could accommodate 4-5 hand lengths.
then you have weapons like this:
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Templar_Great_Sword
That are confused weather or not they are an axe, or a sword....XD



However it's isn't all bad, I loved the characters, and quite a bit of some of the story.

Still, the gameplay sounds like it absolutely svcks, the more traditional fantasy RPG is replaced with ACTION! RPG, which I'm not very fond of, and it sounds unbalanced with classes.
I played a rouge archer latest in Origins and it was amazing how crap skills I got, I had like one or two attacks and the rest just plain svcked.
Got some new good talents with Awakening but I still felt like the underdog of the party while Sten/Oghren, Wynne/Anders and Logain/Zevran/Ingrid(?) kicked ass.
And if the story is only "ok" then I think I'll pass on DA2.
Don't feel like pumping out money for a game that's adequate at best.

Gonna have to wait for Borderlands 2, Postal 3, Dead Island and Skyrim I guess.

You seem to be putting a lot of faith in the opinion of one person. I, on the other hand, enjoyed DA2 quite a lot and don't think it's mediocre nor adequate, I think it's properly a good game. It's all a matter of taste, like I always say. :shrug:

Anyway, what the hell is http://i53.tinypic.com/59yk93.gif? 0_o

Theory: everyone in Hawke's party is too distracted by Hawke's appearance to put a stop to her/his craziness.

It's not nearly as bad as some people would have believe. However it just doesn't compare to Origins i would have you believe :hehe: It's about 0.8 times the game Origins was, is my feeling of it.



:lmao:

The story has been "ok" or "horrible" from the four people that I've asked about it so I don't put faith in just one person's opinion.
I'm not gonna go over and ask on the Bioware boards either since I'm sure newfans or simplydon'tgiveacrap fans will state it's awesome.
So I ask those I can ask around here and see what their views on the game is.
I hate just about every gameplay change that I've heard of and seen on gameplay videos and heard people comment on.
So the only saving point would be the story for me. (I'm an Origins elitist I guess. )
And I'm not particularly interested in buying a new game for a crapload of money (live on welfare) if the story isn't amazing.
Since the people I have heard comment on the story says it's okay or good at best then my choice is to not buy the game.

Me buying the game has been set a couple of weeks ago as "no".
I just want more information on the game anyway.
So it's not like this guy completely changed my view on it or did the final blow towards no.

Still, I'm interested in people's views on the story mostly.
Maybe the first 4 I heard say it wasn't amazing just didn't think it was amazing to them.
Maybe I'll get 11 people that say the story is amazing.
At that point I might reconsider it. (I'll still only buy it if it's on sale and used.... And I need a coupon too.)
But I don't wanna spoil the story either yknow, so I don't want to look it up on the internet.
That's why I feel I have to rely on player opinions.
Still, on a scale of 1 to 10 the best it's gotten was 6.
Unless I get an even amount of people that rate it 9, 10 or 11 I ain't going to bother.

I'm very picky with games.

The main problem I have with the game is just how boring I found everything to be. Art style? Boring. Sure, you could say DAO's was GENERIC LOTR GRIMDARK, but I really didn't find anything good about DA2's. Nothing really stood out as looking aesthetically pleasing. The city of Kirkwall was boring too. There really isn't much going on, and it seems like the devs didn't even try to give the city atmosphere. I only got up to Act 3 before I uninstalled the game for the second time, but from Acts 1-3, I found very little to no difference about the city. Now, a city wouldn't change radically in a period of a couple of years, but since there is so little change, it felt like everything I was doing was meaningless. It felt like I hadn't progressed from the first day. But I think the main problem I have with the game is the story. DAO's was not anything special or unique. It was a typical "an ancient evil has awoken and only you could stop it" storyline, but at least it gave me some sort of motivation. I had something to look forward to. In DA2, I asked myself, "Why am I doing this?" multiple times. It felt like there wasn't any overarching story; there was nothing to motivate me.

You're disregarding the fact that hard-core fans dislike any sort of change, so it's more likely that you'll get a stream of hatred towards the game as well and I would say it's also one of the reasons why you're getting such opinions here.

Take a look at the bars under "User Reviews" http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/dragon-age-ii. 333 positive opinions, 118 mixed and 717 negative (at the moment this post was written). Anyone who has studied statistics even remotely seriously in his/her life will be able to tell you that something is rotten with that data. Not that it is fabricated, but that people who have negative opinions about the game have most probably tended to leave a comment/rate multiple times. It's how fan-boyish hatred works - flood the Internet with your negative opinion to make people think that more people hate the thing you hate than actually do.

DA2 is an ok game in it's own right but it isn't as good as Origins. The Battle System for DA2 is much faster then Origins, Healing has a much longer rechargetime including potions, the enemies due sometimes come out of nowhere, you can't change companions armor, and DA2 has a bunch of bugs although there should be a patch coming out hopefully next week that fixes the problems the game has. I will say that Archer is much better in DA2 but Mage got a huge nerf stick. Mage is still a good class but when compared to what you could do in Origins it's not even a contest. I like the Skill Trees in DA2 that's probably one of the few things that the game improved from Origins. The story is also a lot weaker then Origins. At least with Origins you had choices but with DA2 your basically along for the ride. You still can make choices but it's a lot more simplified then say I'm gonna choose to side with the Werewolves or the Dalish.

If I were you I'd wait for it to drop in price before getting it as I probably would've done the same thing had I known how many bugs the game had.