You can choose not to fight dragons...but dragons will choose to fight you.

You can seriously justify killing a creature in real life that isn't a human? Like what? And no, pests don't count as we were responsible for putting them in that position in the first place, and don't say that creatures which are dangerous deserve to die; you've missed half the thread. Sometimes it is necessary to remove a threat but that doesn't mean it deserves to die.

And I'm sorry if i insulted anyone who does respect my opinion; but I specifically said shut up to those who DON'T RESPECT MY OPINION, not those who disagree with it. I know from the start that there are people who will always disagree with me, i don't have a problem with that.

And the keyword to the last post is CHOOSE. In Skyrim, the fanatical dragons themselves didn't choose that path; Alduin did.

Right or wrong, humans have justified it plenty of times. There have been cases when large animals, such as the more predatory cats or crocodilians are "destroyed" for either being too large, developing a taste for human flesh, or for claiming an inconvenient or urban location as their territory, in such cases relocation is not possible as they would simply return.

However, does a dragon need to justify itself for killing one of us? Not really. The will of their creator likely rings louder than the tiny voice of a dissident who likely cannot even understand or abide by the reasoning for his actions. By following the path set forth by their god, a dragon likely sees themselves as being justified by default. Alduin may have chosen his path, but his dragons are just as at fault for choosing to follow unquestioningly.

In any case, it has already been confirmed that there will be non-hostile dragons...which really does not come as a surprise to me. If God had Lucifer it was inevitable that Alduin would have his own splinter group who for whatever reason chose to turn from his side, likely either pity for us mere mortals or other more selfish reasons.

Humans have fought for their survival; in these cases have removed threats to their survival. But that is not to the fault of the creatures that threatened, in their own will to survive, as implied above about some creatures deserving to die in real life.
And since some of the dragons 'chose' to follow Alduin unquestioningly, don't forget that even that decision was engineered by humans.

Yes I do find this about face on TES' original view on dragons weird. I guess Akatosh only thwarted Meruhnes Dagon's plans of taking over Tamriel, so Akatosh could wake up/ not be a slave to keeping the existence of Nirn going any longer? Or to put it more bluntly, Akatosh only stopped Merhunes Dagon so he (Akatosh) is the one that gets to slaughter all who appose him. :shrug: As we can see in this thread, Bethesda is going with the flow of the majority (no doubt where the money is) and making dragons the typical antagonist (worst case scenario).

Best case scenario, Bethesda is using that as a crutch to hype up the game. And when we actually play it, find that there is all sorts of moral ambiguity throughout that game as a lot of other gamers are wanting. Making for many possible endings. I for one would be pleasantly surprised if the main story is constructed that way, providing considerably more depth than the typical, ``Kill the antagonist to save the world.``

Funny how humanity seems to need to raise, fain, make a fake conflicts when there is no need for conflict, just to sate its own pride in vain self worth/ significance. Seems that we always have to conquer something just to feel significant even when nothing needs to be conquered.

Ghandi would so get his ass devoured bydragons.

It seems that the OP isn't against us killing dragons, he's against us "disrespecting" them...

Beyond that, I cannot fathom the depths of his twisted logic. I'm not even sure what he's arguing for now.

I believe that you will either be able to kill them or invite them to a fancy dinner and then back to your place.

Player: "Wanna come inside?"

Dragon: *Bats eyelashes and stares intently into player's eyes.*

Que music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKPoHgKcqag

Ok, to be more specific:





















THAT's disrespectful. And i don't understand the ketchup thing or the party.
And my argument now basically is... second guess your enemies, and don't always go by the view the media wants you to. Respect life and death.
And don't compare humanity's fate with the dragons'.
And what do you mean 'twisted'?

You seem to have a double standard. You haven't voiced your opinion on slaughtering Daedra (well, they're immortal so they might not count). You just seem to be concerned for the dragons because they seem to be intelligent animals.

But you show no concern for anyone else.

I am really glad that Skyrim is coming out because I love killing dragons. I am going to look at it as a dragon death sim. I don't really care about the main quest or my character,basically, as soon as my character is hard enough to stomp some lizard head I'm gonna get out there and start my spree.

I only wish dragons were real so I could kill them in real life too, that would be sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

:celebration:

If it haven't been mentioned I will bring up that there are a group of dragons that serve Alduin, called the Jills(unless I'm misinformed). This implies that not all dragons want to destroy the world and may not even be interrested in fighting you unless you provoke them. Todd said that the reason the dragons have returned will be explained in the course of the game(once again I might be misinformed).

Also: Alduin is destroying the world to either 1) remake it and make it better or 2) freeing himself and the dragons from Nirn from what information I have gathered. Then again I could be wrong as I'm not a Lore-Master working for Bethesda.

You have quoted a post of mine whose point I think still stand. You have said that you don't want to kill dragons. Then, why don't you mind killing people? I'm sure that bandits are not a bunch of evil people fighting you because they are EVIL, but they have to do so in order to survive (at least, some of them). If you don't mind to kill virtual unlucky people, why do you mind to kill virtual giant lizards? What's the difference between killing a virtual wolf and a virtual dragon? And no, I'm not the kind of person that killed bugs because I found it funny, I respect animal life. But Skyrim is about some mythical creatures trying to destroy the world because their master has ordered them to do so, either to free himself or to build a new world, now that mortals are spilling their own blood. Where is the problem in defending the world from destruction?

Anyway, we know that not all the dragons obey Alduin, it seems.

No, because it isn't "The game will do whatever you want." You can play however you want- but when you refuse to fight the dragons sent to destroy the world, don't expect them to play along. Expect to end up as dragon poo.

It was confirmed in a German gaming mag that some dragons will in fact be friendly and can be talked to by the player

there are dragons that talk to you though, todd confirmed it, but no link sorry.

You're right - i don't care about humans as much as i should. But I grew up resenting the insensitibity and juvenile behaviour around me by many other children. I also grew up being pushed into keeping up with the world; and seeing the many atrocities that humans had committed. That's part of the reason of my love for video games... to escape. The atrocities were mostly because of people putting themselves first, especially in crime against all other wildlife. I have conditioned myself to think in the opposite direction... but perhaps a little too extreme. But that's how i am. I don't have a problem with defending the world from destruction, but i do have a problem with people demonising dragons because of their own selfish perceptions. Its basically the story of the Tasmanian tiger repeating itself... and if anyone gives me reasons why dragons should be demonised i'm not going to listen, because in my mind i see the last Thylacine dying whenever a dragon is killed because of selfish misconceptions. If you don't like dragons, don't bring others down by demonising them.



Mankor's Caravan... You are exactly the kind of monster that i have been trying to speak against. If you are speaking truthfully then I really, really hate you.

Are we seriously arguing the ethics of killing a fictional bunch of polygons that are 100% hostile by virtue of programming? Seriously? A dragon that is attacking you is an enemy, like a frost troll or a draugr. It will try to kill you and the only way to get it to stop is to kill it right back, or at least force a retreat so that you can get away.

And for the record, I love animals. They're [censored] delicious.

Horrible anology. Dragons are nothing like Tasmanian tigers. Dragons do not naturally occur in nature, they aren't just trying to survive, and they aren't wrongfully killed by the hundreds for no reason whatsoever. If you notice, you never go hunting for dragons; the dragons are hunting for you.

You can't take real-world creatures, with no morality or sentience, and paste your perceptions of them onto a fictional creature that is different in every single adaptation of them. When I write about dragons I usually make them wise and powerful, giant scaly Obi-wans. But that is not how Bethesda has chosen to show them in this game. They are there for the sole purpose of eating you and the rest of the world. That does not mean Bethesda thinks that ALL dragons are evil, nor do the majority of people who play the game.

While I find your views of humanity somewhat disturbing, I'll respect them. I'll admit we're not the brightest, nicest bunch, but we certainly don't deserve to be wiped from existence.

That's not entirely true. There are dragons that speak, they say, probably ones that had always been in Skyrim before this Alduin business.

No. The OP is just voicing their concern over the game encouraging (if not out-right requiring) the genocide of dragons due to human perception of them being little more than beasts to be slaughtered, because the idea of it reminds them of real-life atrocities of similar circumstance. Similar to how a virtual spider can trigger the fear of a real-life spider in an arachnophobe, virtual animal genocide can trigger the depression of real-life animal genocide in some people.

Correct me if I'm wrong, OP.

Having said that, I would again point out that there are existing clues that lead me to believe there will be intelligent, non-hostile dragons, and the possibility of dragons not going anywhere anytime soon.

That would make a lot more sense of their argument if that is what they mean... but it doesn't change the fact that these dragons aren't just harmless creatures going their own way in the world.

It needs to be repeated again:
The German PC Gamer confirmed there are non-hostile dragons you can talk to, largely negating the worries some of us had in this topic. Now for the few that don't want to have to fight any dragon, as long as the primary villains happen to be dragons that's not happening. I'm glad there will at least be a couple that aren't all out villains.

I am honestly hoping that it doesn't get so cut and dried with there being definite "good" dragons and definite "evil" dragons, and really hope that they are not portrayed as some odd separate species from one another.

I believe that the dragons don't need to exactly be portrayed as villains, so much as antagonists. They believe in their cause and act in its name, while pushing against our own by circumstance and necessity. That however does not mean they have to be truly considered as "evil".

Our actions as the dragonborn, depending on the cosmic outcome could very well be seen as evil or damaging as well, but to the protagonist and the people the deed would likely be considered heroic. We are essentially going to be at war of sorts with them, and as in real life there would likely be individuals of wildly varying degrees of morality on both sides.

Our victory against the dragons shouldn't necessarily be difficult due to our foes... that definitely is a plus, but due to both sides being in their own way....partly justified yet wrong at the same time.

Yes, you are right on the money. Thank you.
Just as a side note: i find dragons to be truly magnificent or beautiful creatures, no matter what or how they are portrayed. And they are always portrayed by humans, being fictional. I've noticed that books and movies more frequently place dragons in the 'good' category than video games. But the 'good' category also leads to their genocide as well.