So could someone explain me why there was no Oblivion crisis for that hundreds of years when tsaesci ruled the Empire, and how could Tiber wear the Amulet of Kings being just kind of Nordic general?

Probably because Red Tower still stood. It wasn't just the death of Uriel Septim which allowed portals from Oblivion to open up in Tamriel. More than one Tower had to be disabled. Azura engineered a grand scheme to help her brother Mehrunes Dagon invade Tamriel. It was in fact the main quest of Morrowind.





Because he was Dragonborn.

I think the reason that there was no such crisis is that there were enough towers functioning properly at the time so that even if White-Gold wasn't actively doing its part, there was still enough of a barrier. For example, Red Mountain in Morrowind was still functioning because the Nerevarine had not yet freed it from its prison. The reason we had the Oblivion crisis in the 3rd Era was that both Red Mountain and White-Gold weren't functioning, so the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion were thin enough for Mehrunes Dagon's forces to break through. Based on what I've read around here, I think I'm correct, but one of the more experienced lore gurus may correct me.

Edit: Seems I was beaten to the punch, but it looks like I was correct.

Follow-up question: Do we know that Azura conspired with Mehrunes Dagon to help him, or was it just a lucky break that he caught?

I don't know that for certain but MK depicted the fall of Ald'Ruhn as including Winged Twilights from Azura's realm. He seems to believe she was at least complicit with his plans if not a co-conspirator.

Can you link us to that illustration/text? i would love to see it

I believe it is http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/obstx_fallofaldruhn.jpg, but I could be wrong. If you look carefully, you can see what looks like people with wings attacking the crab.

Haha, I was arguing about this with someone earlier today. Glad to see that the consensus of this thread agrees with my opinion.

Given the kind of daedra forming Dagon's army, along with the hints we get of what he was going to turn Tamriel into and what actually happened, I have a theory that Azura, Mephala, and Molag Bal provided material support. Then pushing that theory further, Meridia, Boethiah, and Nocturnal/Namira (honestly, is there a difference?) provided tacit support, while Sheogorath, Malacath, and Sanguine openly opposed the invasion, with the others in varying degrees of neutrality.

Also, here's a color http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs21/f/2007/284/1/c/The_Fall_of_Ald__ruhn_by_Red_Aardvark.jpg

I can see why you listed some of those daedra, but I am confused as to why you selected Nocturnal and Namira. Nocturnal just seems to be about...darkness, while Namira is Kynnareth's gross nature cousin, who has a strange obsession with spiders, slugs, other gross things.

In my mind's eye, I put Namira as somewhere in-between Nocturnal and Vaernima and so when I start talking about the Darkness that is to come with the fall of a unifying empire, Nocturnal and Namira tend to get used almost interchangeably. Anyways, Nocturnal claims the Void of Oblivion to be her realm and it serves her interests if there isn't such a bright light shining from both the Towers and the Empire, but not enough to warrant pissing off other Princes over it. If you want that in terms of Namira, an extension of her pervue tends to have very anti-civilization overtones to it. Or at least disestablishmentarianism overtones.

(I almost got to actually use the longest word in the English language in context. I feel happy.)

Meh, I pinged her more as just the ugly side of nature. Like I said, Kynnareth's weird cousin who really seems to love nature, but not Bambi nature. No, more like letting spiders crawl all over her, with slugs and such, while sitting in a damp dark cave.

Thanx for your opinions. I've already heard this explaination, and it's good enough but that Mark Kirkbride's fairy tales keep discomfotring me with its total divergence with in-game literature... But as I thought there's no better explaination so far. Let's hope that Skyrim will confirm this one or give us a better one :unsure:

And about Tiber Septim: does the thing he is Dragonborn mean that he is an Alessia's descendant, or was he just worthy of becoming an Emperor, so Akatosh let him wear the Amulet? There's no word I found in lore about his real kinship with Alessia.

EDIT: There is a strange thing in that Tower theory: Numidium was created much later than other Towers, and it's stone at the beginning was the same as Red Mountain had - the Heart of Lorkhan, as Mantela - it's own stone - was created in the very end of 2nd era, so I can't see how Numidium could help holding Oblivion sealed. That theory still has huge holes in it.

EDIT2: Aw, I found another thread about Tiber (http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1159999-question-regarding-tiber-septim/), so that question is removed

Well, pointing out inconsistencies in the linear time-line of Numidium is kind of pointless, as I understand it.

There are many Dovakhiin's (Dragonborn's) in Tamriel so I don't think that being Dragonborn means that he is Alessia's descendant.
The GI Hub Update says that he was one helluva strong Dovakhiin tough so thats probably why he was allowed to use the Amulet.

As for the Tower theories... so the main character of TES3 was manipulated by Azura so that main villain of TES4 could start what he wants. Similarly, TES4's hero was fooled by Akatosh/Alduin to allow main villain of TES5 could start what he wants. So who is manipulating us in TES5? XD

I am not aware of any in-game literature that conflicts seriously with the writings of Michael Kirkbride, a man who contributed significantly to the plot and backstory of all three of the most recent TES games.

However, I think the explanations given in this thread deviate significantly with the source. Too rarely to people return to the texts and actually read them, and certain misconceptions have definitely taken hold in the community that ought to be corrected. The image of "Towers" as something akin to power stations which keep the division between Mundus and Oblivion "powered up" - and of a history of Towers being destroyed, slowly weakening the mundial membrane until it all collapses at the end of the third era - is just not supported by the Intercepts.



Here we see the creation of Mundus at the Convention. This, the old covenant with the Ehlnofex, the titanic ancestors of the Elves and Nords, sustained the world. This covenant was superseded by a new covenant made with Alessia, the mother of men, which was symbolized by the Amulet of Kings, which was, not coincidentally, the Stone to the Tower of White-Gold. Thus, the old covenant was lost with the events of Morrowind, but the new covenant remained firm so long as a dragonborn remained on the throne. During the events of Oblivion, both covenants were now lost, and more importantly a man who knew how to use the Amulet of Kings as the Ayleids had intended it did so, and was able to open the gates to Oblivion.

This certainly implies such a connection.

It certainly doesn't. That passage and its meaning was explicated upon several times throughout the Nu-Mantia Intercepts: the First and Zero Stones have sustained the world since Dawn. This is very different from the sort of lowly, mechanistic, and, honestly, unmagical understanding of the Towers that has taken hold.

I'm not sure where you're finding this room for interpretation that allows it to not have been a significant factor in preventing, say, an invasion by Dagon. "... Tricked again by the Dagonites" and "protection of our enemies to our Enemy" seem to make it pretty clear, unless you're trying to tell me Dagon manipulated that into happening for the lulz (which would be closer to Mephala's sphere). Not to say that the Towers are/were merely there to keep Oblivion out of Mundus, but that was among their functionality, and it may not be a direct effect of the Towers, but perhaps an effect of an effect.

How does this constitute a "covenant with the Ehlnofex"? I've never heard of such a thing.

The several posts that were made while I was writing this one seem perplexed by the distinction that Nu-Mantia (not me!) makes between Red Tower and the other towers. Make note of that. This will be an extremely heterodox interpretation of the Nu-Mantia Intercepts. However, it will be one which follows the Nu-Mantia Intercepts strictly and accurately. I believe that the current interpretation is entirely unsupported by the text itself.

Here is what the text says about the purpose of the Dawn Towers, Adamantia and Red:This passage is quite explicit. The Zeroth Tower determined "the spread of creation," the First Stone "allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine." The implication of the fall of Red Tower, thus, is that the world will cease to exist; "the gates of Oblivion will open" is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of this statement, supported by earlier references to the meddling of "Dagonites."


But nowhere in the text does it say that the other Towers have anything to do with upholding the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion. They are not described at all like Red Tower. They are described as mimicking Ada-Mantia, in language that mimics the description of Ada-Mantia:That's right, the Aldmer, like the gods before them, use their towers to "spread creation and their parts in it." It seems rather fanciful to imagine any connection to the barrier with Oblivion in that. It is, moreover, not at all like the language used to describe Red Tower, which is the Tower whose fall is associated with Dagonites.


On the other hand, there is a straightforward explanation for the opening of the gates to Oblivion given by the last Intercept. Its stated here:In other words, White Gold's very function was to interact with Oblivion, rather than Aetherius. Thus, when the Amulet of Kings fell into untrustworthy hands, those hands used it to open the gates of Oblivion.


In Nu-Mantia, the Ayleids, the Dagonites, and the Mythic Dawn all seem to form a continuity. The meaning of the text seems very clear: by obtaining the Amulet of Kings, the Dagonites are able to open the gates of Oblivion, which Red Tower once prevented. This can easily be reconciled with what Oblivion says about the dragonfires and the Alessian Covenant, because there's no reason they could not have served a similar purpose as Red Tower, though this text just doesn't mention them. Only a rather impoverished misreading of Nu-Mantia could explain this terrible misconception that's plagued this community for so many years.

Look at phrases like

and

Emphasis added, of course.
The word "emulate", and the fact that "spread creation and their parts in it" is an exact echo of the phrase used to describe the purpose of the Zero Stone, make it pretty certain that the later towers serve the same purpose as the first two; although surely not as essentially.

But your point of contention seems to be whether or not they uphold the Barrier with Oblivion, as Ur and Red do?
Well, what IS the barrier, if not reality itself? I've never imagined that it's some literal and distinct fence separating Mundus and Oblivion; I've always held the impression that it simply refers to the solid "reality" of Mundus, which is the quality that distinguishes it from the rest of the universe.


It's my understanding that this "unassailable reality" IS the barrier.
It seems fairly obvious that if that's the case (and I can't imagine what else would be), then the Aldmeri-made towers would contribute to it.



Also: I think there IS a reason why the dragonfires and the Alessian covenant can't serve the same purpose as Ur and Red Towers: They don't fit the metaphysical pattern of the Towers.
It's not an absolute reason, but I think it's suggestive.

No, no, no! The gods created two Towers which serve two purposes. They are distinct, do not confuse them. One creates and molds the world, it is this one that the Aldmer emulated, "built to bring about a reversal of the congealing spiritual bleed caused by the Convention." Before you try to reinterpret this into an association with Oblivion, let me emphasize the word "congealing" and the phrase "caused by the Convention." The Aldmeri Towers were, like Adamantia, built so that they may shape the world.

The other, Red Tower, "allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine." The Intercepts make a distinction emphatically between the purposes of Ada-mantia and its imitators and the purposes of Red Tower. It goes on to explain that the fall of Red Tower was a blow to the Empire, saying nothing whatsoever of the others. This clear distinction, which I emphasized in my previous post, is outright ignored in your post when you assert that the other Towers "serve the same purpose as the first two" as if the first two served the same purpose!

Your post goes on to conclude that "the barrier" and "reality" just mean the same thing, which is not even specious. The only possible way to draw that conclusion is if you were specifically trying to. In other words, you're just begging the question.

Your dismissive attitude is unjustified; not only is my assertion NOT specious, it's entirely intuitive and natural. I had never even thought to articulate it before now, it seemed so obvious.
Just to restate for clarity: I think the that "barrier" that separates Nirn from Oblivion is a metaphorical one referring to that attribute which makes it distinct: Its "unassailable reality". What separates Mundus from the rest of the rest Aetherius is its solidity and reality.

But if you won't even acknowledge this enough to refute it, at least tell me: What IS the barrier then?

It was certainly not my intent to offend.

The towers create and mold reality. Nu-Mantia says nothing about them sustaining reality. In fact, a whole new tower, Red Tower, is created to sustain reality once the gods departed the world - and again, the Aldmer did not imitate Red Tower. The idea that the Towers all "hold up the barrier" or whatever, or even that they are falling!, is not supported by the text. The text says these things exclusively in reference to Red Mountain. It moreover refers to one tower, the one most relevant to the plot of Oblivion This, like the reality of Adamantia, is unassailable.

How do we know what the Ayleids intended to do with the Amulet of Kings?

Well, but they opened the gates before they had the Amulet.