Hmm?

M'aiq said people who wanted these were idiots. Whether that's true or not, however, depends on the player. ^_^

I've only scanned the thread, so I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet, but about the Daggerfall Dragonlings, from the daggerfall manual:

'The fairly common Dragonling is a worthy opponent for any adventurer. It is capable of casting a number of powerful spells and healing itself in combat. Those who speak their language tell us that beneath a veneer of maddening riddles and non sequiturs are minds of great wisdom. Despite all their merits, Dragonlings are less grand than their lineage would suggest. Explorers, Sages, and Archivists have argued for centuries over whether the great Dragons of legend still live, if in fact they ever existed. The people of the Alik'r Desert insist that their vast plain of sand is home to a multitude of the Great Wyrms. Granting the Nomads their propensity for tall tales, if there were a forsaken land where the great Dragons still fly undisturbed, it would indeed be the Alik'r Desert. '

It suggests that dragonlings, by the 'less than grand heritage' part, aren't actually related to the dragons of old. So they haven't been retconned, because it's not even certain if they were actually dragons in the first place.

It could be a relation in the sense of "dragonlings are to dragons as monkeys are to humans." You've got your similarities, but they're not the same thing, and only one has invented computers and space travel while the other is still trying to create Shakespeare via typewriter. "Dragonling" doesn't have to mean "offspring of dragons", after all.

So, maybe Wyrm is the Genus.

And dragonling and dragon are two species of wyrm. Maybe giant wyrms, called dragons, are extinct like the dinosaurs. And dragonlings are what they evolved into. Or, simply close cousins.

The few you meet in past games could be really old survivors of whatever wiped them out. Maybe, dragons weren't normally dungeon dwellers, but the few that survived did because they were in a dungeon at the time. Maybe the smaller dragonlings survived whatever wiped out their larger cousins because they were able to quickly file underground.

The bigger ones weren't fast enough and couldn't all fit into the caves, so they were still fighting amongst each other when the asteroid or whatever hit. Maybe the few remaining dragons don't speak of the extinction out of shame for what they did to their brethren in order to survive.

they should scribble some lore and get them back as monsters/allies this time around honestly what kind of a fantasy world we live in if we don't have dragons!

and sea monsters would be nice as well, and drakes, and giant lizards (not dinosaurs ) and big demons and creatures and zombie hordes.

Yeah, I agree that it's possible that dragonlings are related in some way to dragons, but reading the Daggerfall manual, I think it's clear they aren't younger dragon offspring as suggested earlier in the thread.
In any case, dragonlings probably aren't dragons in the sense that the OP meant.

For larger enemies I'd rather have more creatures like Karstaag and Grahls than something that's, in my opinion, much more boring, like dragons.

LOL nice one...................burn M'aiq :flamed:

The only invisible thing is M'aiq's brain.

some people are just so obnoxious it makes me want to throw aside my vows of peace and pummel them until they beg for mercy. :toughninja: :toughninja: :toughninja:

ya there are tons of awesome creatures that they can add that would make epic monsters

Nirn is what it's called.

This.

I don't understand everyone's obsession with freakin' dragons. They're overused and overrated. I would much prefer to see TES go in a more original direction.

That itself often seems to be why. Every day people are aggressively requesting the more cliche elements of fantasy for no other reason than because it's what everyone else does, and therefore, how it's "supposed" to be.

Quite likely. Personally I'd say the best way to handle dragons in TES is DON'T HAVE THEM AROUND. Saves the troubles of making them, no trouble having to integrate them in the story and no crap about having to cram them in a good or evil side.

A dragon that chased the dwarves from their home, isn't that the Hobbit. I seriously doubt that anything in tes is original; dragons least of all.

Dragons are somewhat cliche in fantasy setting, but the fact that they are officially part of the setting means that people are going to want to see them. As someone who has been the DM in several D&D games, I know people want to see the second D in the games name, but I like to think they should be among the rarest creatures around. Usually I like to at least refer to them, just to show that they are around, and only have them show up when the players get to a high level. I would like to see a dragon in a future TESs game, but it should be something we have to work up to, either the big bad of the game, or one of the last quest givers in the main quest, like Vivec in Morrowind (exept much harder to find and kill).

Maybe a conversation with an elder dragon during the main quest, if any contact at all, could fit. Don't make them fightable though.

ENGLISH MAJOR ALERT:

When experiencing a story in any medium, the genre exists much like the TES schools of magic. It does not set the plot or setting in stone, but it does gear and set up expectations so the writer or marketer doesn't have to. Dragons, being majestic, gigantic, creatures just short of gods that can be used to represent either greed and wrath, or pride and nobility, tend to leave a lasting impression and therefore people expect to see them when they are geared towards "fantasy."

And cliche is in the use. Dragons written well can be incredible additions to a story, written poorly can be your cliche monster.

The thing is that, being introduced by Morrowind, which was just weird, I never really think, "fantasy." Even if I was introduced by Daggerfall, that one is unique enough as well.

I guess I never had that feeling of, "why aren't there any dragons" because I don't automatically think "fantasy" just because I see elves and swords. I enjoy learning about the world they created, appreciate the different bits of literature and history that inspired it, and don't get hung up on the fact that it's supposed to be a certain way because everything before it was a certain way.

No offense, sir, but you think like a producer! It's that whole attitude of, "if it hasn't been done a thousand times before, it's not worth doing at all" that kills so many creative ideas before they ever have a chance.

It's the same type of logic that suggests that all pirates in fiction should be swashbuckling treasure-hunters just because of Robert Louis Jackoff Stevenson and his awful book.

Well, TES is pretty much the textbook definition of Fantasy, "A world that is not real or realistic but operates on a set of internal consistencies." Elves and swords have nothing to do with fantasy really, aside from the way people associate them. Simply being made up completely, separate and divorced from reality even further than regular fiction, but still consistent within itself.

In any event, the elves and swords are done in such a way to keep it from being what is commonly seen as the cliche fantasy, which is to say copying the aesthetic of Tolkien's world and none of the depth. Instead, it copies the level of depth but not the details. A similar but distinct core with a unique body.

"dragon gets munchies and wants some popcorn" Hey its an adventurer just the right size... NOM NOM NOM.

Well, Tolkien has elves and swords, which is why people think Tolkien when they see a fantasy setting.

I'm glad you brought this up because I was going to say that "Star Wars" is fantasy. "Kazaam" can even be considered fantasy. Fantasy doesn't have to always mean hobbits, dragons, and wizards.

TES started as the cliche fantasy game and although morrowind took a step away and made new things (at least before the sequels, which went back to standard fanasty like goblins and liches), Oblivion threw it all away to be generic tolkin-like fanasty again.....if anything Morrowind is the odd game out in the series as all the other were just generic.

That being said, generic isnt bad if you throw new ideas in too, but there is hardly a singe new creature in Oblivion. geneic is familar, when you meet a troll you burn it with fire, if that was different it would be confusing....but if ever meeting is generic then the game get boring.....there needs to be a better balance and more for the player to learn.

On the topic of dragons....no, I dont want to have a boss battle with one. They are one of the few big mystries left (like the dwarves) and they are questions that are better left unanswered,

yes yes, I don't care I just want monsters/creatures that makes you go OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :drool:

They're in my modded Morrowind game and certainly a force to be reckoned with. Lost many a companion to the dragonlings alone.
When facing Nagafen, the one in the cave, I always go alone now.