[Jose ordaz]

EDIT: Reached Post Limit, NEW THREAD HERE. http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1171209-dragons-discussion-thread/page__p__17268892__fromsearch__1#entry17268892

[Scott Clemmons]

So i was thinking about it for a little bit and what would happen if i defeat alduin (not sure if i spelled that right) would all the dragons leave if so i dont think i would beat the main quest for a while because i want to take out dragons all the time. If they do get rid of quests i wish that like it would be like the arena where i would have to go and slay one dragon once a week because they found one in a cave or something. What does everyone else think.

[matt]

So i was thinking about it for a little bit and what would happen if i defeat alduin (not sure if i spelled that right) would all the dragons leave if so i dont think i would beat the main quest for a while because i want to take out dragons all the time. If they do get rid of quests i wish that like it would be like the arena where i would have to go and slay one dragon once a week because they found one in a cave or something. What does everyone else think.

I like that plan. In Oblivion, I'd enter an Obivion gate any time I felt like it. I never got them all...highest game had 30+ gates but they were there and I could do what I felt. It was great. Hmmmm....makes me want to play again.

And I'd like to see Jason Marsden voice something(one) in Skyrim. He's done FO2 and FNV and has good range in his acting. Great voice.

[Janette Segura]

I like that plan. In Oblivion, I'd enter an Obivion gate any time I felt like it. I never got them all...highest game had 30+ gates but they were there and I could do what I felt. It was great. Hmmmm....makes me want to play again.

And I'd like to see Jason Marsden voice something(one) in Skyrim. He's done FO2 and FNV and has good range in his acting. Great voice.

?

Your gates stuck around after you finished the main quest line? Mine closed like they are supposed to hehe.

[evelina c]

I really don't care about having multiple voice actors, I barely noticed the voice actor shortage in Oblivion. I do not think a dragon mount would fit in with TES, but that doesn't mean I won't ride it. I didn't really like most of the powers listed, since I feel that dragon shouts should have a noticeably different feel from spells. I want the fights to be fairly long and very rewarding, not to the point of dying most of the time but you should certainly die if you are a low level or unprepared. I think dragons are slightly gimmicky, but I will love their inclusion nonetheless.

[NAkeshIa BENNETT]

I'm really looking forward to the language.

It really helps with the immersion. I think the only people who don't care much for it re the "dude man bro" gamers.

[Shiarra Curtis]

So i was thinking about it for a little bit and what would happen if i defeat alduin (not sure if i spelled that right) would all the dragons leave if so i dont think i would beat the main quest for a while because i want to take out dragons all the time. If they do get rid of quests i wish that like it would be like the arena where i would have to go and slay one dragon once a week because they found one in a cave or something. What does everyone else think.

Since I think we'll end up banishing Alduin not defeating him (killing him) and creating another Dragonbreak my guess would be the dragons would all be gone too.

I hope that isn't the case though.

I would like to be able to still play the game. Do more exploring and have lesser dragons still be around that I can hunt and kill. Maybe not as many as before I complete the story but still some would be nice. I totally understand if there are none though.

[Donald Richards]

Alright. This is what I want:
1. Every dragon having individual traits (maybe a random generator might work. One that cycles through presets would probably be the way to go) The way this would play out is that the player is not fighting the same dragon every time. Maybe the player could be fighting one that blasts the player with scalding vapors and later fight another dragon of the same difficulty that freezes the player. Advanced: this is probably hard to do but, if the designers could make a variety of unique tactics the dragons can utilize. i.e: one dragon might fly over the character and use its powerful wings to blast the character with a mighty gust of wind before it returns and flames him while another might land on the ground and fight the character face-to-face.
2. Different dying sequence depending on certain factors (this one is probably difficult as well). I think this would really test the physics system. What I am thinking is if how the dragons crash into the ground could be based on height, velocity, mass, and means of death. My reasoning is that a large dragon should make a bigger impact than a smaller dragon if they fall from the same height. But, an exception could be caused by the dragon being incinerated before it could even hit the ground. This rule really goes for everything else. Advanced: If the creature were to be stunned in mid-air, the damage taken should be based on the previously listed factors AND how it lands (face-first should do more damage than landing on its side). Even better would be damage calculated for WHERE they land (possible impaling?). I'm sure they can do this if they set their minds to it (this will probably sound strange if they already have )

I had more to say but, I cannot remember it any more so I'll edit this later.

[Cayal]

I'm really looking forward to the language.

It really helps with the immersion. I think the only people who don't care much for it re the "dude man bro" gamers.

haha know what you mean. Agree with cipher i hope we can enjoy the main parts of the game even after we finish the story

[Jesus Lopez]

So I'm guessing dragon shouts aren't necessary to defeat dragons because then how would we defeat the first dragon we face?

[Rebekah Rebekah Nicole]

So I'm guessing dragon shouts aren't necessary to defeat dragons because then how would we defeat the first dragon we face?

Unless the first dragon you face isn't until the Greybeards train you.

[Sami Blackburn]

So I'm guessing dragon shouts aren't necessary to defeat dragons because then how would we defeat the first dragon we face?

Well

My guess is you'll visit the Greybeards atop High Hrothgar, that is to assume you successfully manage to climb the 7,000 steps , and they will train you in the way of the tongues. Teaching you your first dragon shout. Which one? My guess is the one that act most like the Thu'um of Nord legends. The one that the god Shor taught mankind to use. First with King Harrald Hairy Breeks (used Thu'um), then with King Wulfharth who's thu'um was so powerful that he could not verbally swear into the office when elected by the Pact of Chieftains so scribes were used to draw up his oaths, and finally with Tiber Septim whom he visited at the battle of http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1150358-skyrim-trailer-breakdown/page__view__findpost__p__16838257 and taught him Thu'um.

The power is a invisible push of staggering power that sends foes hurtling away from you staggered by the force of your yell. Spoken in the game, your hero will intone the three words for the full shout: “Fus, Ro, Dah!” Translated into English, “Fus” means force, “Ro” means balance, and “Dah” means push.

Then you must kill the dragons that are suppose to be a regular threat to unlock the ability to learn more shouts, As defeating a dragon has you absorb the soul of the fallen creature, which "fuels" the ability to learn a new shout. Then you visit ancient walls of draconic scripture and learn more words as you collect and become more powerful with your dragonshouts.

That's my take on it anyways.

“There are other people in the world who can use the dragon shouts, but it’s very rare. It’s like arcane knowledge. It used to be done more in the past,” Todd Howard explains. “The Greybeards know it. But your ability to absorb the dragon souls and do the shouts on the level that you can is beyond them.”

Atop a great mountain that rises above the tundra and forests of Skyrim known as The Throat of the World sits High Hrothgar. A settlement that is home to the Greybeards who live in absolute silence in order to better attune themselves to the voice of the sky. The ability to use the dragon language already existed in the fiction and lore of TES. It was called “Thu’um.” The concept roughly translates as “The Voice.” These mysterious old men will play a key part in the Dragonborn’s story. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thu%27um and the Dragonborn hero (you) must climb the 7,000 steps to reach the remote retreat and be trained by them.

These dragon shouts are the same source of power that launched the last line of emperors. Tiber Septim would use the dragon shouts to lead his troops into battle and unite Tamriel under one empire. (More on his history http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1150358-skyrim-trailer-breakdown/page__st__100__p__16838257#entry16838257) Hundreds of years later, the Septim line has died out, and no other dragonborn have been seen for many years. That is, until the hero of Skyrim arrives on the scene.

Spoiler contains: 5 things I learned about the dragon shouts in past Lore of TES.

Spoiler

1. Thu’um sounds badass and very powerful.
A long practiced spiritual form of Nordic magic, also known as the Tongues, that is based on their worship of the Wind as a personification of Kynareth. Through the use of the Voice the power of a Nord can be formed into a thu'um, or shout - which has a large variety of applications. Shouts can be used to sharpen blades or to strike enemies. A common effect is the shout that knocks an enemy back, or the power of command. A strong Nord can instill bravery in men with his battle-cry, or stop a charging warrior with a roar.

Master Voices (known simply as Tongues) have legendary, and often unbelievable powers. They can call to specific people over hundreds of miles, and can move by casting a shout, appearing where it lands. The most powerful masters must even be careful whenever they speak, as their voice can cause great destruction. They must go gagged, and communicate through a sign language and through scribing runes. The breath and the voice are the vital essence of a Nord.

Today, all Tongues live secluded lives on the highest peaks of Skyrim in tough conditions and contemplation, and have only spoken to announce the destiny of the great Tiber Septim.

2. When the Nords attack a city, they take no siege engines or cavalry; the Tongues form in a wedge in front of the gatehouse, and draw in breath. When the leader lets it out in a Thu'um, the doors are blown in, and the axemen rush into the city.

When they defeat great enemies they take their tongues as trophies. These are woven into ropes and can hold speech like an enchantment.

3. During the Conquest of Morrowind, the Nordic war chiefs were also Tongues (Derek the Tall, Jorg Helmborg, Hoag Merkiller). They needed no typical siege weapons when attacking a city as they merely used the Voice to break down the city gate and allow their armies to storm in. The future of the Tongues was forever changed by the most powerful Tongue, Jurgen Windcaller, also better known as the Calm. Jurgen converted to a pacifist and refused to use the Voice for any martial purposes. In a confrontation with 17 other tongues he reportedly swallowed the Shouts of the 17 for three days until they lay exhausted, later to become his followers.

The art of Thu-um as a weapon is now lost and forbidden. Apart from the students of the discredited School of Thu'um in the Imperial City, Tiber Septim was reputedly the last man to wield this power. However, the ancient Greybeards still sit atop the many steps leading to the peak of High Hrothgar. (Hints that this is the training you shall receive in Skyrim)

4. The further north you go into Skyrim, the more powerful and elemental the people become, and the less they require dwellings and shelters. Wind is fundamental to Skyrim and the Nords; those that live in the far wastes always carry a wind with them.

5. Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky. They call Skyrim or rather the tallest mountain in Skyrim the Throat of the World, because http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-children-sky They believe that they were http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nord when the sky breathed onto the peak of this mountain, where High Hrothgar stands. The religion of Skyrim is focused on the Aedra and their old ally, Lorkhan. The Nordic Akatosh is Alduin, a terrible, ravenous dragon who presides over the cycle of existence and devours the universe at intervals. His coming is feared by all pious Nords, and he is the object of (through Nordic eyes) perverse worship by the Altmer, who venerated Auri-El. In more recent days, it has been shown that the traditional Alduin can co-exist with the less adversarial Cyrodiilic interpretation of Akatosh the Time Dragon. Kyne is notably more assertive and warlike than the nature-loving Kynareth. Although Mara is present in her role as a mother goddess, it was Kyne who is the mother of the Nords. She is also credited with sending her son Morihaus (and perhaps Pelinal) to the aid of the Cyro-Nordic slaves in their uprising. The chief of the pantheon of Skyrim is Lorkhan, and he merits the most mention. The Nords know him as Shor. The king of the gods, a champion of men in their struggles against the elves. He was treacherously slain by elven devils, yet continues to bestow favor on his people by aiding them with immortal champions such as Ysmir, another member of the Nordic pantheon. Today, Ysmir is the name by which Nords recognize the divinity of Talos.

Spoiler Contains: My theory on Shor's connection to the Dovahkiin (Dragonborn) in Skyrim

Spoiler

I posted this awhile back in my http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1152130-the-story-behind-skyrim-v20/page__view__findpost__p__16865167 but I think it pertains to the topic of discussion so I'm going to re-post it.

Interesting take on things by the Nords huh?

[Karl harris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB-ej0hYPH8&t=3m05s

[Tiff Clark]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB-ej0hYPH8&t=3m05s

I guess there's more Dragon Hunts from Gothic II...

The above was the fire dragon.

There was also...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z64w5DvB_Wo&t=3m30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06eh1y97Ejc&t=6m17s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jDDcivncnk&t=3m37s
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OhyncoYXjc&t=1m06s

Sadly they all seemed pretty weak and died within seconds. Flying for a little while to move around but never out of weapons reach. Doing a couple breath attacks but nothing that made them seem to possess astounding power. Eventually falling to simple attacks, sword swings and arrows./

Hope Skyrim's dragon battles are nothing as shameful as those.

[Megan Stabler]

So going to high hrothgar and traversing the 7000 steps should happen fairly early in the main quest. Akin to delivering the amulet in oblivion?

[Darlene DIllow]

So going to high hrothgar and traversing the 7000 steps should happen fairly early in the main quest. Akin to delivering the amulet in oblivion?

If my guess it right it would be pretty early in the story, Nothing has been confirmed as of yet just hinted at.

That's a nice anology though. I guess it would be similar to delivering the Amulet of Kings to the Grandmaster of the Blades, Jauffre in in Weynon Priory.

And what a way to get you pumped and right into the action then climbing 7,000 steps up a steep mountain through the mountain fog and mist to High Hrothgar to speak with these mysterious old men, the Greybeards.

[FLYBOYLEAK]

I still do not get where they get it from that dragons were banished from Nirn thousand years ago, when it's obvious that they were not. :brokencomputer:

[Amelia Pritchard]

I still do not get where they get it from that dragons were banished from Nirn thousand years ago, when it's obvious that they were not. :brokencomputer:

They probably won't articulate it in absolute terms. Given Alduin's return, I think it's clear that these dragons will be behaving rather differently than the occasional Akaviri war mounts or Imperial agents we've seen. Dragons used to inhabit Vvardenfell, remember.

The only thing is, they don't have too many thousands of years to work with here.

[Jessica Colville]

I still do not get where they get it from that dragons were banished from Nirn thousand years ago, when it's obvious that they were not. :brokencomputer:

There is next to zero lore about dragons in TES. You don't know what happened.

[Mandi Norton]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern

Cipher 8, I think you should add to your dragon description near the batwing segment that mose of these dragons are Wyverns.

Wyverns have wing like arms and hind legs.

[Laura]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern

Cipher 8, I think you should add to your dragon description near the batwing segment that mose of these dragons are Wyverns.

Wyverns have wing like arms and hind legs.

Okay, I'll go add it now let me know what you think, if i should reword it or not.

[john palmer]

Seems good but you might need to reword the hind legs part.

It makes it sound like they have wings on their hind legs.

The hind legs are usually reptillian or bird like.

[k a t e]

I still do not get where they get it from that dragons were banished from Nirn thousand years ago, when it's obvious that they were not. :brokencomputer:

That would put it back in the middle of the Second Era (somewhere around 2E 500). That would be a rather odd time for a banishing, which I would expect to be connected with some sort of major conflict or similar event. Maybe the end of the Akaviri Potentate not too long before that, but that was just a Morag Tong assassin getting all stabby...

[Céline Rémy]

I looked around and it doesn't seem as though anyone has yet mentioned the fact that dragonlings were present in Daggerfall (which, if you recall, took place around the Iliac Bay, the body of water separating High Rock and Hammerfall) as enemies. If I'm merely repeating information, then I guess I just didn't look hard enough.

Pulled from the manual's bestiary:

"The fairly common dragonling is a worthy opponent for any adventurer. It is capable of casting a number of powerful spells and healing itself in combat. Those who speak their language* tell us that beneath a veneer of maddening riddles and non sequiturs are minds of great wisdom. Despite all their merits, dragonlings are less grand than their lineage would suggest. Explorers, sages, and archivists have argued for centuries over whether the great dragons of legends still live, if in fact they ever existed. The people of the Alik'r Desert? insist that their vast plain of sand is home to a multitude of the Great Wyrms. Granting the nomads their propensity for tall tales, if there were a forsaken land where the great Dragons still fly undisturbed, it would indeed be the Alik'r Desert."

?The Alik'r Desert is in the northwestern area of Hammerfell, south of the capital of Sentinel and west of the Dragontail Mountains. Coincedence? It should be noted that Nafaalilargus was present in Redguard, on the Isle of Stros M'Kai, which is in Hammerfell.

*Dragonish was present as a language skill in Daggerfall. I figure the change of the language's use was a stylistic decision; one made to give a more unique flavour to Skyrim's dragons, give the player more tools to dispatch them (and therefore a role to play during the Main Quest), and sheer "cool" factor.

However, this postulates the question of whether or not dragonlings are wyrmlings. I use the two terms as being separate and distinct, as it is a question of origin. Are dragonlings indeed baby dragons and therefore wyrmlings? Or are they merely offshoots of the dragons we find in Skyrim? If they are wyrmlings, then where are the advlts? If they are not baby dragons, then this may explain why their language does not have the same power as what the Dovahkiin will utilize, among other reasons.

---

On the subject of their appearance, I will be sorely disappointed if the screenshot's wyvern-like concept does not change in the wing department. Wings that small, with almost no trailing edge (membrane connecting the wing to the body), would be unable to produce enough lift to keep the creature aloft. The leading edge (membrane between the homologous humerus and radiulna, assuming they are fused) is also an important factor in determining the angle of attack, which correlates to lift and aerial agility and manovreability. That being said, regardless of how much a dragon's wings resembles that of a bat's, attempting to utilize its phalanges exclusively for the purpose of propulsion is folly. Given the structure of the torso, it seems more likely that the wings would be attached to the sternum, modified into a keel structure, similar to a bird. This would allow the attachment of powerful muscles to generate the requisite energy needed to achieve flight and the forward (or upward, in the case of a hover) momentum through thrust to maintain it. A dragon would then utilize up and downstrokes, then coast for brief periods between each, as opposed to the relatively continuous flapping as seen on a bat.

I'm aware that dragons do not exist in reality, but that by no means is an acceptable excuse. I must continue to entertain the idea that physics and biology pertain to a world that has given me little cause to doubt their existence in the first place, at least until they have been thoroughly refuted by an official, and current, source. Aside from this, it is also a highly aesthetic issue in that these wings are simply blunted and ugly in comparison to the rest of the body. Were they to keep the wyvern appearance (as opposed to using a Western Dragon, with two wings and four legs), then I would be happy if they did something similar to the Reign of Fire dragons: http://www.milesteves.com/gallery/d/1170-2/ROF-big-Ashley-72.jpg (note the extension of the olecranon, or the protrusion of the ulna), http://www.milesteves.com/gallery/d/1108-2/ROF-crouch-6.jpg, http://www.milesteves.com/gallery/d/1189-2/ROF-crouch-5.jpg, http://content7.flixster.com/skin/profile/68/78/29/6878297_profile_mbox_background.jpg?version=20070506113735

More nitpicking: despite their scaly coverings, those hind legs are neither distinctly reptilian nor avian. They do not splay out to the sides and are directly positioned beneath the body, and the thigh is clearly distinct from the rest of the body. What is perceived to be a bird's "backwards knees" is actually the articulation of the lower leg and foot, to draw parallels to human anatomy. I cannot accurately judge whether or not there is an opposing digit on the feet (not all birds do, nor the same positioning or amount of digits either), though I would imagine there would be one, if only for the sole purpose of allowing them to pick up enemies or objects in their claws, rather than the mouth. You are, however, correct in that is a digitigrade (walking on toes) configuration.

Bah, I didn't want this to turn into a biophysics class, but unfortunately it did.

[michael danso]

I would very much like a dragon mount. With some good animations preferrably. The point of a dragon mount isn't simply to fly to places, the point is that it's a dragon mount! I'd like to be able to do backflips and barrel rolls on my dragons, I'd like to see the trees sway as I zoom by, perhaps see snow stirred into the air as it gets brushed by the wingtips.