Dreams of the Fire chapter 3 : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu May 03, 2012 9:04 pm

From the people who are on these forums waaaaay too much

Comes a new RP

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Dreams Of The Fire

Based off of the canon of the Amulet of Daedra's Call RP thread.

And, for those not familiar, this is a Roleplaying and Q&A thread. There will be lots of roleplaying, humour, over the top drama, contrived plots, and pretty pretty colours.

THE CANON

(we must worship its mightiness!)

I SAID WORSHIP IT!!!

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1224224-help-me-mold-my-character/

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1224652-help-me-mold-my-character-thread-2/

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1226496-the-amulet-of-daedras-call/

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1245869-dreams-of-the-fire/

This RP is set 20 years before the events of Skyrim, around the end of the Great War between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion. As the Thalmor establish their foothold in Skyrim, chaos erupts through the province as Dragons appear and the Holds split apart. Civil war is rife in the air as Ulfric Stormcloak starts his first rise to power after he is released by the Thalmor, and a god, long forgotten, is returning. Enter our characters. Though a strange, and, well, ummmmmm, strange lot, they will decide the fate of worlds. Though they may not know it yet, something far worse is on the horizon, and only they can stop it.

(May the Divines save us all)

The land of Skyrim will never be the same again, that much at least is sure.

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Oh, and we really don't like to follow these rules http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/747418-so-you-think-you-can-rp/, so if you don't like rules, but like to RP, then this is a great place to come.

*Well, okay, we do have SOME limits, thought those really only come down to the Forum's limits and regulations.*

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So, without further Ado, let those who wish to join be known, and I shall put you up here. No theoretical limit on number of participants, but if I and the other Senior Rp's here think it is too crazy, we will block out new sign ups. If anyone wants to add any secondary characters up here, you can, just PM me. I already have put some of my secondary characters up here for easy reference. If we vote that that is stupid, I will remove them.

I am on as much as I can be, but what with College, modding S.T.A.L.K.E.R., playing S.T.A.L.K.E.R., and trying to keep my girlfriend from breaking up with me because I have played WAY too much Skyrim and S.T.A.L.K.E.R., that is not as much as I would like, so I apologize in advance if I don't respond immediately to PM's.

Anyway, I hope we all have fun, and I hope you enjoyed my life story in a paragraph or less.

YAY, thread two!

I'll begin:

Belan Indarys: speaking in Light Cyan.

Spoiler

Quirinus Latartus: Speaking in Light Green

Spoiler

Jahron: Speaking in Off-Yellow

Spoiler

Charon - Speaks in Medium Blue

Spoiler

Faire Nalesdane- speaks in Yellow

Spoiler

Maximillian: Speaking in Orange

Spoiler

Veronica: Speaks in Light Pink

Spoiler

Amiel Vantus- Speaks in Maroon

Spoiler

Erik Steelsong: Speaks in Dark Cyan

Spoiler

Lleyartus Olvidadus (Azriel): Speaking in Purple

Spoiler

Ales Ke: Speaking in ?

Spoiler

» Thu May 03, 2012 11:14 am

spoilers dont work, out of town and not on my usual pc, but will post within a day.

» Thu May 03, 2012 12:06 pm

spoilers dont work, out of town and not on my usual pc, but will post within a day.

Yeah, Gaius said that he had loads of papers in at once or something so he did a bit of a rush job on the new topic. Should be alright though, since we can just check the previous topic for the working spoilers.
Also, if I didn't make it clear in my last post, Faire isn't actually dead. Yet. She's just slowly bleeding out from the hole Quirinus made.
Good luck Charon!

» Thu May 03, 2012 6:37 pm

Sorry I havnt posted in a while had some RL stuff going on, and i finally got my new gaming pc built so I've been enjoying all my favorite games with high fps. Going from ~20fps on low-medium to 50+fps on all my games maxed out is pretty amazing for me.

Charon and the others had arrived at Alftand in the mid evening. He could see by the tracks going into the place that they would not be alone, he just hoped who ever was in there was friendly. They made there way through the gates and into the cavern. They soon heard shouting.

As they rushed in they found Jahron and Ales stomping at the ground and chiping away at it with their weapons frustrated.

What in Oblivion is going on!?

They looked up shocked but soon relieved to see the others.

FAIRE!!! SHE'S DOWN THERE WITH QUIRINUS!!!

Down where?

They pointed at the ground and upon further examination Charon realized that it had been magically sealed.

Step back!

He stooped over it and examined it. He could see that there were cracks that possibly went all the way to the bottom. He reached back into a pouch and pulled out a hand full of dust.

Whats that?

Flash powder.

Never heard of it.

It never existed until I stumbled upon it.

He began sprinkling the dust down into the cracks.

Why is it called flash powder?

When it meets open flame it sparks into a blinding flash of light. If it is in confined places it can be rather explosive.

Every one took cue from Veronica who had already began to back away and was now walking behind a rock.

There that should be enough.

Charon ran back a few steps and began to summon fire. He summoned as much as he could and compacted it into an explosive missile, and then fired it at the sealed whole.

Quirinus lifted Faire up off the ground, blood gurgling in her throat she tried to insult him.

I'm sorry about this child I really am but this is all for the greater good I promise. You and your friends just dont understand what lord Vivec has planned, how he will change Nirn for the better.

A blinding light and explosion erupted from behind Quirinus sending him, Faire, and Dawn's Dusk flying. After the smoke cleared Faire could see several figures emerging from the whole in the ceiling.

I'm going to leave this up to you Soul, not sure how you want this battle to go down.

» Thu May 03, 2012 10:30 am

I'm going to leave this up to you Soul, not sure how you want this battle to go down.

Fair enough. It was a little mean of me to leave it up to you when you didn't really know what I wanted to do with it, but I needed time to think. Congrats on the new PC too!

********************************************************************************************************************************
That...was not supposed to happen.
Charon and the party had a look around as the smoke cleared. The first thing they saw was Quirinus, cursing and trying to get up. The second was a strange looking dagger that had a faint glow to it. The third was Faire, slowly bleeding to death.
Faire!
Faire!
Faire tried to call back, but she had no strength anymore. It was taking all she had not to drift into unconciousness.
Quirinus had managed to pull himself off the ground, sneering at those who had interrupted his victory.
I suppose it was foolish of me to hope that seal would hold. Damn! I had hoped to avoid any further bloodshed today. Dawn's Dusk, come to me!
From its resting place far across the room, the dagger began to shake, slowly moving.
We have to stop him!

Do not move.
The voice rang in their heads, commanding them to do as it asked through both its tone and its words.
And so, they watched helplessly as the dagger slid across the floor and was gripped by the hand of its intended target.
What? You?!
Breathing heavily, Faire held Dawn's Dusk in her hand. In Quirinus' it had emitted a dull glow, but in Faire's hand the weapon burned. Burned with fire. The fire spread slowly up Faire's body, healing the damage done.
*I sat up, gripping staring at the dagger in awe.*
...how...?

Quirinus' face was dark with anger as he drew a sword from his side.
Give that back, you filthy n'wah!
Oh no, I don't think so.
*The area around me began to blurr and become wavy, as if someone was mixing together paints. Colours from everything around swirled and condensed on the hilt of Dawn's Dusk.*
*And through the fire that spread from the hilt into me, I understood what it meant.*

*We did.*
*I sprang forward, performing a complex pattern of moves as old as time to grab a blade and twist it in another direction.*
*A favourite of Raize the thief's.*
*I seperated the dagger and slashed with the fury and precision of Ja'rohn.*
*I called forth streams of ice and fire on Quirinus, magick of Ales and Kiva.*
*The blades became a katana as I lead Quirinus' blade this way and that, in the skill of Charon and Belan.*
*The katana grew into a full on greatsword as I slammed it against Quirinus as Veronica might have done.*
*Last of all, I struck with the powers of Erik and Maximillion, rending Quirinus asunder.*
*And then I-we-it-they-.-...-....-......*

*I felt myself tearing apart, everything I had gained was siphoned back into the hilt.*
*I could see the crushed remains of Quirinus in front of me, but everything else was completely white. I felt as if I was standing on something, but I couldn't see what.*
*A flash of darkness corrupted my vision as the dark shape from my dreams appeared before me.*
Here we are again, though this time it is no dream. Faire.
You're...Rime?
Yes. And yet, also no.
The shape changed, forming new forms that I knew all too well, They were cycled through faster and faster, as they said words I couldn't bare to hear.
Where are we Faire?What have you done?This is your fault!What are you?A freak.A monster.A weapon.A fool.A weakling.
Stop!
*The shape stopped for a moment, then changed once more into one that seemed far more solid than the others.*
*It was a man with scruffy brown hair covered by a strange looking hat, brown eyes and an overall handsome face. His expression was filled with wile and charisma, with a smile that dazzled those who saw it. An enchanted dagger hung in the scabbard on his longcoat, with a J inscribed on the hilt. J for Jack. He had the stature of an accomplished thief and the pride of living through it all.*
*This could be only one man.*
Hello there, darlin'. Long time no see! Well, for you at least.
Raize?
*He smiled his cunning smile.* Perhaps I have some explaining to do.

» Thu May 03, 2012 2:18 pm

HA! I figured it was Raise!

» Thu May 03, 2012 5:03 pm

HA! I figured it was Raise!

DId you figure out the anagram though?
Iaazrime
I am Raize
I'll probably be posting another part soon-ish.

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:49 am

DId you figure out the anagram though?
Iaazrime
I am Raize
I'll probably be posting another part soon-ish.

I thought it was a mix of Amiel and Raize...

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:56 am

No didnt get that. just my intuition.

» Thu May 03, 2012 6:09 pm

Welp, I warn that tonight I'll be rounding off the story. Stay tuned 'till later, folks!

» Thu May 03, 2012 6:57 am

*He smiled his cunning smile.* Perhaps I have some explaining to do.

*Raize clicked his fingers, making two chairs appear seemingly from thin air and imploring me to sit down. I took the offer and began to think of what to ask him. The first question seemed immediately obvious.*
Where are we?
We're in a time frozen instance caused by myself in Blackreach.
And the blankness?
Merely a side effect of time shifting. Next.
How are you still alive?
Very good question, Faire. The simple answer is that I'm not.
You're a ghost?
No, no. You see, when I took my life to accidentally cause the void to appear, my soul joined with that of the void. So, I am pretty much dead, but I am now part of the very thing that is slowly swallowing the world.
Then why help me?
Because I needed to give you a fair chance.
At what? Stopping the void?
Well, yes. But the truth is...the way you will have to stop the void is by killing me.
But, I-
No buts. It's something you will have to do. Next question, we're running short on time.
Why are we running short?
Because in a few moments I will no longer be Raize the thief. I will be the embodiment of the void. And you need to be prepared for when that happens.
How will I...kill you once you become the void?
The answer lies in Dawn's Dusk. Why do you think I brought you here in the first place? It wasn't for the scenery, you know.
The area around them started to become wavy as fragments of the real world started pouring in.
One more question, Faire.
Where are my friends?
Raize blinked for a moment, surprised.
You don't know?
The world was beginning to become more and more stable and familiar. Not much time left.
No! Please, tell me!
When you wielded Dawn's Dusk, you merged with them. After your fight with Quiirinus they must have been swallowed by the void.
He tapped his head.
I'm afraid it's time for me to leave, Faire. I've done all I can for you. It's up to you to stop me, because in a moment I-

The instance shattered as Faire saw herself in the somewhat familiar surroundings of the cave. Except this time, an impenetrable field of darkness blocked her vision of the whole cave.
*I tried peering into it, but all I saw was more blackness. For some reason, that only made the feeling of dread worse.*
Faire Raizedaugter. We meet at last.

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:51 pm

*I raised Dawn's Dusk up, assuming an aggressive stance.*
That pitiful plaything will not help you, Raizedaughter. We have made sure of that.
Where are my friends?!
Merely in our cold embrace. They are quiet now, and more at peace than they ever were before. Perhaps it is time...
For you to join them!
All the darkness condensed into one spot for a moment and assumed the familiar form of Raize, holding his dagger.

The void shape drew Jack and walked forward slowly. Much the same as the void was swallowing the world.
*I charged with a cry, trying to call upon the power I had in my fight with Quirinus mere moments earlier. Yet every time I reached for the power it kept slipping away.*
You know nothing of what we are, what you are. Pathetic creat-
*I slashed with Dawn's Dusk wildly, but the void shape didn't so much as flinch. What was I missing?*
*The next few seconds passed as minutes.*
*The dagger was connected to the Elder Scrolls somehow, and the scrolls held all the knowledge of all futures. What will happen, what might happen. The dagger was evidently not an Elder Scroll, so what was it?*
*Usually, I try to keep aware of my surroundings as much as possible. But for a moment, I closed my eyes and reached out to the dagger the same way I might contact Ales via our mental link. I stumbled blindly through my thoughts until, merely by chance, I found what I was looking for. I saw Dawn's Dusk in its true form, through the physical layer.*
*Stars surrounded me. Spirals of galaxies. This was the universe, this was nirn. Dawn's Dusk was everything that ever was, is, and will be.*
*And that was the moment when I truly understood what I had to do.*

Ha! I've figured it out!
-ure. What?
You are the void. You are nothingness personified. So, how do you destroy something that isn't truly there at all, never was and yet is at the same time?
You do not. Nothingness is eternal!
The void screamed as it charged, lunging with Jack forward towards Faire.
Perhaps it is, but that does not mean that you're invincible! Dawn's Dusk is everything! All futures, all pasts, all presents.
The dagger began to shine bright as any sun. The void struggled against its light.
Dawn's Dusk! Lend me your strength, the whole world's strength, to defeat the threat to your existance. We cannot afford to lose, so you must help me!
I will not let you do this!
The void enveloped Faire in all of its darkness, trying to snuff her out. Yet all it did was amplify the light that shone from the dagger.
Dawn's Dusk! The world is half ruined, half swallowed by this void. I know you do not have enough energy to prevail against it. You have been weakened by its treachery.
So, take my energy and use it as your own. Use my life force to repair the world as it should have been!
Faire took the legendary dagger, turned it on herself, and plunged it into her own heart.
The void shrieked in triumph at her foolishness, but the glow of the dagger began to catch alight. It began to burn with the fire that would burn the world, and restore it anew.
The fire spread down her body, through the dagger. Dawn's Dusk became aflame and white flames burst from it, enveloping the world.

The void was gone, time restored. No one remembered the void, the dragons. No one remembered what should not have happened. But then...only one man remembered Faire.

» Thu May 03, 2012 5:49 pm

*I sat up, dazed and confused. Where was I? Did she do it?*
*I looked around. I was back home in bed, sleeping in after a mission to steal a ring. It had seemed suspicious, yet it went off without a hitch. So what was missing?*
Are you ok, Raize?
*I whipped my head around towards the doorway. There was Kiva, beautiful as ever, even as pregnant as she was. It would only be a few months until she gave birth.*
I could say the same for you. You need the rest with those twins kicking about in there.
I just wanted to get something to eat,
Eating for three are we?
Maybe.
*She walked towards the bed and sat by my side, clasping my free hand.*
Something's wrong isn't it?
Kiva. Where's Faire?
Who?
Faire. You know, blonde hair, quite bubbly and determined. Perhaps a little foolish.
I don't think I've met anyone called Faire, Raize. She wasn't one of your lovers, was she?
No...nevermind, Kiva. Get some sleep.

Raize asked around over the next few days, talking to those he knew had been involved with what had happened. Not a single one of them remembered who Faire was, or what she had done.
Is that why you started spreading Faire's tale dad? So that everyone would know what happened.
That's right, Adna.
But what about Charon and everyone else? Didn't any of them remember?
Not right away, no. Over the years, it seems that the lock people experience on memories of what happened has started to fade. Still, only those closest to her remember anything about her.
That's a really sad ending,,,what do you think happened to Faire in the end?
*I looked straight at Adna, her face bright with anticipation. She was still young, but I could see she would turn into quite the young woman. I would have thought she would inherit her mother's deep red hair, but Adna's stood defiant as honey blond. Even the eyes were the same deep violet eyes.*
Something tells me that she got her reward in the end. Now go on, off to bed with you two. You need your sleep.

*Adna pouted a little bit, but she and Elon left mostly without fuss. I was left alone, contemplating what had happened.*
*Kiva came in, looking a little more worse for wear than normal. She'd been experimenting with some new alchemy recipes from Charon earlier.*
Do you really think she's Faire, Raize?
Well, I'm not one for religion much, but something tells me that the gods don't leave good deeds unrewarded.
And besides, you think a reborn world would leave out the one who made it?

» Thu May 03, 2012 5:05 pm

I suppose your right, I only pray that she will have a peaceful life this time around.

I know what you mean. You look tire my love, why dont you get Adna and Elon tucked in, I'm going to go get some fresh air before I come to bed.

She leaned down and kissed him on the forehead, Dont take too long.

Raize walked out the door into the cool night air and sat in his favorite rocking chair as he puffed on his pipe. The years so far had been peaceful and quite. It made him uneasy, like the calm before a storm, but he enjoyed it while it lasted.

So are you going to sit in silence or are you going to talk to me?

A shadow materialized from the night and walked up beside him and leaned against the wall.

How have things be going old friend.

Old? I'll have you know that being in your forties does not make you old.

Ha, I suppose not. Charon lowered his hood and mask and took a breath of the air.

Raize stared at him for a few seconds before turning away.

Fifteen years.

I'm sorry?

Its been fifteen years since we first crossed paths and yet you have not aged a day, must be the Daedric blood.

Thats what I have come to beleive over the years.

How old are you anyways Charon?

You wouldnt believe me if I told you.

Try me.

Well, I'm not sure but I believe I'm in my fifties.

Hmmm, doesnt surprise me.

The wind blew rustling the tree's.

I dont like this.

What?

How quiet things have been lately. No wars, no bandit raids, no nothing.

Calm before the storm?

Exactly.

What if I told you that the calm was about to end?

Well i might have another idea for another rp. didnt expect this one to end so fast but then again it seems that only 2 or 3 of us are still around.

» Thu May 03, 2012 5:46 pm

Don't worry, I'm still here, the past three or four weeks have been hell. And Mass Effect 3 will not help...

» Thu May 03, 2012 5:28 pm

She leaned down and killed him on the forehead, Dont take too long.

Best. Typo. Ever.

Well i might have another idea for another rp. didnt expect this one to end so fast but then again it seems that only 2 or 3 of us are still around.

I'm not sure, Charon. By this point in time, Raize and Kiva are pretty much permanently retired while Faire is certainly not up for any adventuring. It seems I've run out of characters to use

.
Still, I would like to hear your idea anyway.

» Thu May 03, 2012 6:40 am

Best. Typo. Ever. :tongue:

Thats not supposed to happen :lol:

I'm not sure, Charon. By this point in time, Raize and Kiva are pretty much permanently retired while Faire is certainly not up for any adventuring. It seems I've run out of characters to use

.
Still, I would like to hear your idea anyway.

Give me a little more time to put things together and i'll post the idea here.

» Thu May 03, 2012 3:42 pm

Give me a little more time to put things together and i'll post the idea here.

Alright then. In the meantime, a little fun fact. Remember I said that Adna had the same honey blonde hair as Faire, yet Faire is described as having straw blonde hair earlier in the story?
It turns out that, as her power with fire increased, her hair became lighter and lighter in colour. If you had seen it as she burned up, her hair would have been completely white in colour. So when she was younger, and her power had not been awakened yet, her hair was more honey like.
I don't know why I come up for explanations for tiny plot holes like this. I guess it's just something that occurs to me when I'm thinking about story progression :confused:

.

» Thu May 03, 2012 7:01 pm

A little fun fact about my characters is that all of them are part of my Elder Scrolls head canon. Belan was the Nerevarine and the later Bastard Prince of Morrowind, Quirinus was the lieutenant of Dagoth Ur from the Great House Dagoth mod, Maximillian was the third member of this Triumvirate as the leader of one of the Great Houses. Then you get into my Oblivion characters I never mentioned, like Caraulus the Brave, the Champion of Cyrodiil, and finally, Cohah Balgruuf, a nord raised by orcs who grew up to be the next Dragonborne Emperor, and Marcus Percurius, a psychotic assassin who believes that he is the mortal manifestation of Sithis on Tamriel.

» Thu May 03, 2012 5:37 pm

lol Well if we're talking about fun facts Charon is the name of the boatman of the river Styx in Greek mythology. In my RL story i'm working on Charon (the main character) is Charon's (the boatman) grandson.

Anyways what i'm thinking (still rolling the idea around) is that the Daedric princes call upon their children to do their bidding, some of the princes have joined together to take over Nirn, the rest have teamed up to stop them because they like the way things are.

Charon refuses to follow Boethia, so he calls upon his other child. I'm thinking something like they are bound to only influence one child at a time, like they are their champions.

There might be some political tie inns with the agressing princes trying to influence mortals to stand in the way of the children of the opposing princes.

Still working on a few other things. But what do you guys think?

» Thu May 03, 2012 5:18 pm

lol Well if we're talking about fun facts Charon is the name of the boatman of the river Styx in Greek mythology. In my RL story i'm working on Charon (the main character) is Charon's (the boatman) grandson.

Anyways what i'm thinking (still rolling the idea around) is that the Daedric princes call upon their children to do their bidding, some of the princes have joined together to take over Nirn, the rest have teamed up to stop them because they like the way things are.

Charon refuses to follow Boethia, so he calls upon his other child. I'm thinking something like they are bound to only influence one child at a time, like they are their champions.

There might be some political tie inns with the agressing princes trying to influence mortals to stand in the way of the children of the opposing princes.

Still working on a few other things. But what do you guys think?

I'm not sure Charon. None of my characters really have connections to any princes so them getting involved would be a little out of place.
Although...I suppose you could say that Raize has a connection to Nocturnal by being in the Thieves Guild, but he isn't a Nightingale or anything.
Besides, by this time I'd imagine that Alduin's prophecy is coming true soon and Skyrim will be chock full of dragons.
Bear in mind that Raize actually isn't in Skyrim at the moment, his family and him actually live in Cheydinhal in Cyrodil. He's the storyteller there.
So, Charon. What is Raize's motivation to get involved in this?

» Thu May 03, 2012 1:32 pm

lol funny thing you mentioned that. I had actually envisioned Boethia's other child kidnapping one of Raizes children. Though Boethia has another child that is just as powerful as Charon, Charon is Boethia's favorite and first pick as champion. The other child knows this and isnt very happy about it and is trying to do anything within her power to to mess with Charon. She is very devious and intelligent and doesnt want to go into a straight out fight with Charon because she knows there is a good chance she'll loose. So instead she is messing with his head, getting him off center. Making him second guess his own decisions and when he is at his lowest she plans to kill him and take her place as Boethia's Champion.

While she's not messing with Charon and those he cares about (because she can mess with them and continue to get to charon, hense why she kidnapped one of Raises kids) She is being Boethia's second pick and doing his bidding by starting wars, assassinating people and making look like some one else did it, spreading rumors to loose moral among kingdoms, and creating mistrust and secret plots amongst officials.

Oh and not all the princes may have children, and last i checked there was no age limit on becoming a Nightingale :wink_smile:

» Thu May 03, 2012 10:24 am

lol funny thing you mentioned that. I had actually envisioned Boethia's other child kidnapping one of Raizes children. Though Boethia has another child that is just as powerful as Charon, Charon is Boethia's favorite and first pick as champion. The other child knows this and isnt very happy about it and is trying to do anything within her power to to mess with Charon. She is very devious and intelligent and doesnt want to go into a straight out fight with Charon because she knows there is a good chance she'll loose. So instead she is messing with his head, getting him off center. Making him second guess his own decisions and when he is at his lowest she plans to kill him and take her place as Boethia's Champion.

While she's not messing with Charon and those he cares about (because she can mess with them and continue to get to charon, hense why she kidnapped one of Raises kids) She is being Boethia's second pick and doing his bidding by starting wars, assassinating people and making look like some one else did it, spreading rumors to loose moral among kingdoms, and creating mistrust and secret plots amongst officials.

Oh and not all the princes may have children, and last i checked there was no age limit on becoming a Nightingale :wink_smile:

In that case, I accept., but only on the condition that it will be the final thread. Also, I volunteer Elon to be the one kidnapped. Faire went through enough already, I'd like to leave her reincarnation out of this at the moment. Plus, I may just have a plan for Elon...

» Thu May 03, 2012 5:15 pm

Awe are bored of doing this already?

K sounds interesting, should we start a new thread or kinda high jack this one?

» Thu May 03, 2012 6:33 am

High jack this one. I'll update the front at some point. Sorry, I sort of think I was the reason that this whole thread went to pot...