I'll never be able to view the Oblivion Gates the same way again......

Really?! :blink: I totally did not ever see/notice that.

I had to stop in and say this thread is both an interesting discussion, and hilariously amazing. I should hang out in the lore threads more often.

So, let me get this straight:

Daedra can have sixual intercourse with mortals.
Daedra can be male or female.
Daedra experience/view intercourse in a way significantly different from mortals.

And, this still seems up for grabs, Daedra can/cannot produce offspring with mortals (no, they can't, or yes, but the offspring are mortal)

For the record, I have read that Daedra can successfully bread with mortals. Hence they provide a problem for Tamrielic scholars who are trying to define 'human'. The nature of the child, though, is still up for grabs. You have to wonder: Do the offspring of a daedra/mortal union always take the form of the female (as do normal mortals in ES lore interrace breeding?). If they don't, how come? Does it depend on what 'form' they are in? We know daedra are neither male nor female... It would also be interesting to see a 'mortal' dremora, and where they fit in society.

Off topic but: If daedra are immortal, why aren't they, like, stupendously knowledgeable? You would think they would be quite wise, and much better fighters, having centuries, if not millennia, to brush up on their skills.

And Harke and Crimson Paladin, do you mind if I quote you guys? That was some funny stuff.

Go right ahead.

And everyone else who sees the validity in that viewpoint.

That said, the banter between the two of you is hilarious, especially the last post Harke made.

Fine with me.

Intercourse is not likely done for procreation, but as a method to expression domination, humiliation, submission, etc. I don't know that a daedra would do it as a reward/for pleasure. It's not too far-fetched a daedra might do that with a mortal (as a reward to the mortal) as part of a bargain or an incentive to get the mortal to do something - still, it would be a loathsome task given the low regard a daedra would have for a mortal. I'm not sure if daedra would do that for each other (i.e. use intercourse a mutual means to derive pleasure).

Daedra can choose their appearance, yeah. They don't even have to have genitalia - consider the atronachs, scamps, daedroth, etc. Thus, the portrayal of male and female Golden Saints and Dark Seducers in Shivering Isles, and the female-dominant hierarchy, seems contradictory. Perhaps it is a form of madness that these daedra have integrated gender identity into their consciousness?

I wonder: how readily can a lesser daedra change his/her/its physical appearance? I.e., can a female-appearing lesser daedra change to a more male-looking daedra in the blink of an eye, or must the daedra wait until its current physical body is destroyed?

If they could change genders, I'd guess that it would probably require either some pretty powerful magic or reincarnation. It's an interesting idea; is it possible that for Golden Saints and Dark Seducers, gender is something placed on them depending on their rank or merit?

I just realized something, since daedra can't reproduce then why would they even have the proper errrm...mechanism for reproduction :hubbahubba: , you know the genitalia, it would really seem pointless, surely they can find a better way of showing humility and domination without taking off their pants

It almost looks as if those lesser Daedra were once a race of mortals themselves, or perhaps they were formed in the image of mortals...

But i thought that daedra looked down at mortals, viewing them as inferior and all-round stupid.

You assume that Daedra can't have different opinions.

Remember in the main quest when you talk to the dremora and he is "honored" to meet the slayer of so many of his kin..etc..

True, although perhaps they were created by the Daedra Princes in the image of mortals with the intention of creating something superior to the mortals of Lorkhan's realm. Or perhaps they were created as a result of the Daedra Princes wishing to have something like what Lorkhan had (mortals), but were unwilling to make the sacrifice that Lorkhan and the Aedra did, so they create Daedra in the image of mortals instead.

Edti: Either way, this would also result in the humanoid Lesser Daedra having an overall dislike of mortals, either through jealousy or perceived superiority.

Sure he (it?) did, but that was one out of a million that tried killing me on sight, but that only reflects dremora anyway, what is interesting is that many daedric princes have the same looking anatomy as humans, the aureal, the mazken, the seducers, even the daedroth, spider daedra and winged twilights to a lesser extent, i think what Crimson said probably hit the mark, see below.





Like i said, i think you got it spot-on, and with the addition of simple things, such as the role of the daedra or the personality of the prince, could easily make the different variations that occur.

I don't see how it would result in lesser Daedra disliking mortals, you have to assume that the lesser Daedra can't dislike their creators such as mortals disliking Akatosh and such. Though I agree they would obviously have a higher chance to dislike mortals, the Aureal and Dark Seducers don't strike me as Malevolent towards mortals, though admittedly they are under the service of the MADgod.

I was under the impression that the lesser daedra weren't created by the Daedric Princes. After all, the lesser daedra can change their allegiances. :shrug:

As for Daedra disliking mortals - they just see mortals as non-entities, such as the "hare" while they are the "hunters." Sometimes the hare is clever, and the daedra may admire that quality without actually liking the mortal as a person. http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/spiritofthedaedra.shtml.

Hmm true, but I was simply arguing against that Crimson Paladins or whoever-it-was (too lazy to look up his name) point. I do like your idea of the hare and the hunter, and it does stand up to lore. So we could safely assume that Daedra (as is supported by lore) are just egoistic. However, just like in real life you can take the hare home with you and make it a pet or just leave it alone if you wish.

However you also have to remember the daedra in Oblivion are MEHRUNES DAGON's daedra... the PRINCE of DESTRUCTION. So that could explain their hatred for mortals, or they could simply hate everything. They did after all choose him as their allegiance.

I must point out I am biased on this argument however, I am currently playing Integration the stranded light, IMO their depiction of daedra is awesome.

Golden Saints do, however, seem to have contempt for mortals, possibly due to a jealousy of Sheogorath's fondness for mortals and their own proud nature. The Dark Seducers, on the other hand, don't seem to mind mortals as long as their master Sheogorath doesn't, given their fanatical devotion to him.


Perhaps they were created by different princes than the ones that they serve now. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the Golden Saints were originally created by Meridia and the Dark Seducers were originally created by Molag Bal or Sanguine.

I thought the beings known as "lesser daedra" are just beings who are a (or many) subgradient(s) below the Princes. Like how many mer believe they were immortal and more powerful before they were bound to Nirn during the creation of the Mundus. Hence the whole et'ada, 'from our ancestors' thing.

If daedra can't create, then how did they create golden saints and dark seducers and all that?

By "daedra" do you mean the Daedric Princes? And by "and all that" do you mean the Lesser Daedra?

I wonder if they aren't spontaneously created, much like how matter and antimatter briefly appear and then destroy themselves (yay for blackholes and Steven Hawking). It leads to the question of "where do souls come from" and do Daedric Princes have souls or are they souls? Do souls of higher subgradients have more power and identity?

Yup

On the subject of the Daedra hating mortals here is something I found:

"Mortals are short-lived, ignorant, and feeble by contrast with the Daedra. But you mortals are also potent engines of change and innovation, of desperate and reckless improvisation and industry. Thus do we so prize the fruits of your mundane and arcane engineering. Thus do we bargain and plunder and steal to gain these treasures. We have lived too long, and grow dull and complacent. You live too short, and so are wonderfully sharp and inventive. Does that make sense?"
- Imago Storm




http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/

I still don't understand why certain daedra have genitalia and others don't.

I understand what I'm about to do may be a bit of a stretch, but I don't buy the elves' theory for two reasons. First of all, the elves are self-centered and believe themselves to be at the very center of the universe. Second, I looked at what happened when the Dwemer tried to reverse their creation. When they did, it did not make them all into gods, it instead made them into the skin of Numidium. It appears that by harnessing the power of the Heart of Lorkhan, Kagrenac was able to partially reverse Lorkhan's act of having the Aedra give up parts of themselves, suggesting that when the sacrifice was what created mortals. The Dwemer were effectively reclaimed and channeled into the divine flesh of Numidium.

Given that Kagrenac had the foresight to build Numidium, it appears he was probably aware of what he was doing. However, given Yagrum not only thought that the fiddling with the Heart was meant to improve the Dwemer race and didn't seem to understand what happened to his race, I suspect that he and the rest of the Dwemer may have subscribed to the theory that reversing creation would make them gods again, with only a few, if any, knowing the truth.

The difference between god and gods is significant in this case. The reversal isn't merely from the profane to the sacred but also from the many to the few. They had to become part of a greater whole, the skin of the Numidium.

Considering the general understanding amongst the Dwemer, I reckon this was understood with the Dwemer.