To the contrary, such a move would have changed the people of Cyrodil's options from stay and fight or go home, to stay and fight or die of starvation. Drought alone have been known to throw the barbarians at the gates. How much worse would it be if the cause of the "crop failure" is a known enemy?

You still don't understand.
The Great House Hlaalu, in the Grand Council of the Great House, would never have proposed something that had absolutely no chance of being accepted. It's not a question of their House being accepted, it's a question of not making a proposal that gets the four other houses to destroy them. Sheesh.


You still insist that they would have been actively aiding and abetting the enemy. Which shows you still haven't understood what the sources on the issue actually say.


Less than what Vivec did.


All those points, completely wrong.

The Numidium wasn't powered. It required that Tiber Septim sacrifices his adviser and friend Zurin Arctus to create the Mantella. Vivec had no mantella, and precious few friends left to betray. So the Numidium was nothing better than a glorified giant brass statue.

The troubles in Hammerfell had been settled by the Second Treaty at the end of the Stros M'kai Rebellion. The Empire wasn't at war with the Aldmeri Dominion until they got the Numidium from Vivec.

Hlaalu were always a small House until that time well the y did not start out as a Great House did they? - Hlaalu had no God-given right to the lands that others owned - one recent example would be the deeding of the Redoran Mines at Caldera, North of Balmora - that was not the Empire's to give - basically they broke the terms of the Armistice in spirit by interfering in matters internal to Morrowind ... and it would appear that this had happened before ... we who played Bloodmoon have seen how the East Empire Company normally plays the game.

So before Vivec signed the Armisice Hlaalu could have kept their mouths shut, but as has been said Hlaalu decided to fall in with the enemy as the Empire then was and sow disunity in Morrowind. Aid and comfort to the enemy is a war crime. It was not for Hlaalu to put this forward - and weak as they were, how did they have the cheek to do so? I would suspect that Hlaalu were in actual, direct communication with agents of the Empire and already had a deal cut before they spoke up - for otherwise they would not have survived the outrage of the other Houses.

What is a war crime? A crime against civilians - no Haig Convention here is there? ... and No UN etc.

In a mediaeval setting razing the crops and sowing the fields with salt was an exceptionally hash tactic - and essentually universal. It did not have to include massacre of the peasantry - actually better to leave the peasants alive to become a burden on the resources of the enemy.

But I guess you guys are avid Hlaalu Supporters ...

Yes, Hlaalu was a Great House. That's why Dagoth was the Sixth, not the Fifth. All lands in Vvardenfell belong to the Temple, and the Houses only jostle for control. ALL Houses jostle for control. Redoran cuts deals with EEC as well. I suppose that makes them war criminals by your reckoning, but the wording and reasoning behind your second paragraph is a little difficult to follow.

I don't really like Hlaalu, but let's get real. They betrayed the culture and sanctity of the land and the legacy of Veloth, but they are not tangible traitors. Of all the valid complaints, why choose the one that relies on facts and history, rather than simple philosophical hidebound umbrage- the reaction that is incontrovertible and actually Dunmeri?

Hlaalu were the last 'Great House' to form, they were a Minor House when the others were Lords of the land - even as a Great House they were the least, up until the time of the Armistice - let's not be shy about describing how they did it - they cut as deal with an enemy at a time when their culture and their nation was fighting for it's existance - and they betrayed all of their fellows - simple.

A deal made with the enemy in time of war for personal advantage is a tangible betrayal, treason and worthy of execution.

Once the Armisice had been made anyone was free to deal with the Empire. But not before and that is plain and simple too. There is no basis to argue otherwise. I think you know that.

If Hlaalu had been an Imperial Family making a deal with invading Nords or Akaviri they would have been traitors to the Imperials ... also clear.

wth are you talking about. You're making stuff up.

A minute ago you said you suspected that the Hlaalu made traitorous deals with the Empire (speculation with no evidence) and when I didn't mention it in my post you thought you'll pull one over on me? What deals? Negotiation (not even negotiation but an unrealized preference for diplomacy) is treason now? By that reckoning, a traitorous war criminal will run this country in 43 days.

And are you pretending that you know when Hlaalu became a Great House, instead of a minor one? You are wrong. The book Poison Song takes place in the First Era. Long before Armistice, the term Sixth House was already coined. One, two, three, four, five Great Houses, and Dagoth the sixth. Your entire post out the window, my friend.

Because he's a self loving child with an ego bigger then his "godhood". One of those "I love my people and they love me!!!" rulers. Either that or he didn't know how to defend his country and he's over rated. Almalexia wouldn't have done this type of bs. She'd have wrecked Tiber.



No it would be "stay and fight and die of starvation, or migrate westward since we don't have any food and it doesn't matter how much we hate the Dunmer now because we can't march on an empty stomach." They would have flooded the major cities and caused even more logistical problems for Tiber Septim.



How do you know they proposed something like that infront of everyone? The source posted up is wroted afterward looking backward. So perhaps no one but the Hlaalu knew directly of such a deal for all we know.



You seem to be thinking that accommodations means "let's just talk with them". Let's help you and some others out.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accommodation

Main Entry: ac?com?mo?da?tion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˌk?-mə-ˈdā-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 1603
1: something supplied for convenience or to satisfy a need: as a: lodging, food, and services or traveling space and related services ?usually used in plural b: a public conveyance (as a train) that stops at all or nearly all points c: loan
2: the act of accommodating : the state of being accommodated: as a: the providing of what is needed or desired for convenience b: adaptation , adjustment c: a reconciliation of differences : settlement d: the automatic adjustment of the eye for seeing at different distances effected chiefly by changes in the convexity of the crystalline lens ; also : the range over which such adjustment is possible

So they would supply the Legions with lodging, food, services, traveling space and whatever else was desired.

If you did this to a criminal on the run wouldn't the police put you also in jail? If the army of Iran/Russia/China/stereo typical American enemy landed an army on the shores of America with intentions to invade and you provided what the dictionary above means, wouldn't you be considered a traitor?

So it seems the problem here is english comprehension, not me with the source. The source is pretty clear. The Hlaalu had intentions to do such things and for all we know may have done so as well.

Less than what Vivec did.

Says who?

The Numidium wasn't powered. It required that Tiber Septim sacrifices his adviser and friend Zurin Arctus to create the Mantella. Vivec had no mantella, and precious few friends left to betray. So the Numidium was nothing better than a glorified giant brass statue.

"Hey Mr. Fyr you old pile of bones, get your [censored] in that Numidium."

Yea i'm pretty sure being a god and all even Fyr would have had a hard time saying no.

That you don't see that a word has many meanings and that only one is valid in the context of the text is beyond me.



No. The Hlaalu ADVOCATED accommodation with the Empire. Since you love online dictionaries, go look up what "advocating" means. If you interpret "accommodation" as "providing lodgings and food" as you so obstinately do, regardless of context screaming at you that it's the negotiation/appeasemant meaning with is the only one that makes sense here, you are saying that House Hlaalu was openly encouraging the other houses to betray their nation.


Says the people who have pointed out several times already that what Vivec-the-God-with-ultimate-authority did induced suicides in the house that was the most religiously-inclined to obey him.

If even his most fanatical partisans rejected utterly Vivec's plan, do you think a more radical Hlaalu plan would have even been suggested? It doesn't make sense, especially not for shrewd politicians like the Hlaalu to say something which will only have the result of making everyone else hate you.

Therefore, reason, logic, and sense dictates that whatever the precise details of the plan that the Hlaalu suggested were, it was less radical than what Vivec did.


Fyr was friend of Sotha Sil, not of Vivec. Vivec had already betrayed his friend Nerevar anyway; that's not a trick you can pull out twice.

The reconciliation of differences in the context suggests taking the course of action that the rest of the definition provides.



I said that they had intentions. Why would they advocate something they had no intention to uphold? Does that make sense?

Negotiation/appeasemant means give and take. "We give you resources X and we take peace." In any case it is still weakening national integrity.



Who are those people?

Who said Hlaalu would suggest anything? To me it seems like they had the intention to fully betray Morrowind. "Better the right hand of the devil then the lowest order of heaven."



I was refering that Fyr could just be forced.

ImmortalBlood, you have been reduced to posting non sequiturs in response to every quote. Make stuff up, like 1999, and we'll be back on track.

Fancy words of dull wit. Are you trying to paint with a hammer?

Yeah, obviously, what the Empire wanted was a room for the night and a bottle of beer. :rolleyes:

A thousand and eight times more sense than what you say. The intentions of the Hlaalu would have been along the line of giving the Empire some borderland and maybe an enclave or two for trading posts, negotiate some trade treaty, and seal the deal with a pact of non-aggression. Definitely not the annexation of the country, and definitely not anything involving military conquest.

Tarvok, Lady N, Paws, me. Read the thread.

This is the core of the problem. You have decided that the Hlaalu wanted nothing more than to betray their country, and somehow managed to get Tiber Septim and Vivec to do their bidding. You see everything through this lense: "the Hlaalu are traitors, the Hlaalu are traitors, the Hlaalu are traitors". Therefore you go into circular reasoning. "The Hlaalu are traitors therefore they planned to betray Morrowind. They planned to betray Morrowind therefore they are traitors. Therefore they planned to betray. Therefore they are traitors. There is no weak point in my logic, it is flawless!"

Wouldn't work. Mythopoeia doesn't work this way. Plus, Fyr was probably in Artaeum at the time anyway.

Instead of purposefully misunderstanding the concept trying to be provided for you, try to answer the discussion honestly. We both know I wasn't refering to a room for the night and beer, but to supply the legions.



So "let's accommodate our invaders, but we won't" makes sense to you?

Yes what they suggested was betrayel even what you are saying right now. It is something to position themselves in a place of advantage, at the disadvantage to the Dunmer as a whole.



Reality must be voted on here.



No, I say that Hlaalu wanted nothing more then to not be the bottom House anymore and motivated the powers that be into them gaining higher position. There is no circular logic being used. They wanted to appease an enemy, accommodate it, help it and that is betrayel. They wanted to do that because they wanted a position of power, and that makes them traitors. Not "They are traitors because they betrayed because they are traitors." This is strawmen strewn about by you because i'm sure the truth has become evident even to you by now.



Not something too hard for a god to overcome right?

But they never did betray anyone, or even advocate treason, because they aren't retards, they're cunning statesmen, and Vivec did it first. So you're accusing them of thoughtcrime. Are you sure you wouldn't like to to go with the circular logic thing instead?

Easy there vango. Having the intention of accommodating an enemy during war IS a crime. If i'm in a war and say "I think i'm going to leave some supplies for the enemy." I'd be locked up.

You're accusing an institution, government, and population of unexpressed, unrealized, undocumented traitorous intent and calling it tantamount to the actual crime. That summons an image of World War II as John Bull and Uncle Sam sitting together on a map and squinting at the Nazis across the channel, willing them to burst into flame.

Let the record show that ImmortalBlood has accused House Hlaalu of thoughtcrime. Let them be taken away into the Ministry of Truth- OH WAIT Vivec has his own Ministry of Truth and he's a traitor too!

But why?

Why supplying the legions?

It doesn't make sense in any way.

The Empire didn't want to conquer Morrowind to supply its legions, it wanted to conquer Morrowind so as to control the whole continent. The legions are a mean to that end, and not the end.
House Hlaalu merely wants to grow in power and influence, something it wouldn't do by being the logistic branch of the Imperial Legion.

Further, it would be active participation in a military invasion of their own land, and that doesn't make sense at all for something which they ADVOCATED TO THE OTHER HOUSES.


No it doesn't, which is precisely why this isn't what you think it is.

You're dead set of this "accommodation" thing being helping the legion invade. Which is completely silly since if all Houses do that, then it's not an invasion, is it? The mere fact this is absurd to the highest degree show that your interpretation of "accommodation" as the Hlaalu helping the Empire invade is nonsensical.


No.


The fact that previous posts say what they say is subject to a vote now?


Okay. Of course they wanted to grow in power and influence. All Houses did, even those already at the top.

Your circular logic appears when you have decided, without any convincing argument for it, that the Hlaalu planned to obtain this by betraying their nation to become the lackeys of foreigners. From then you've constructed this "accommodation" nonsense about the Hlaalu wanting to help the Legions invade the country (which, as it has been pointed out several time, isn't what they wanted to do since the Hlaalu accommodation was what they proposed to the other Houses and they wouldn't propose something like this). And then you fall back on the origin, since they want to help the Empire they commit betrayal. Congratulations on finding logical overunity. "They are traitors. Therefore, what their "accommodation" mean is betrayal. Therefore they want to commit betrayal. Therefore they are traitor."

It is completely circular.

Gods are especially constrained by and susceptible to the laws of mythopoeia. It is what makes them rise and fall. "Doing it wrong" isn't a good idea.

I'm accusing the nobility of Hlaalu of aiming to accommodate at enemy. More on this later in my post.



Well of course it didn't invade Morrowind to supply its legions but if it wanted to invade Morrowind it needs supplies. Do you really have no comprehension of military logistics? Or are you just trying to divert the conversation (again) into something it is not?

Being the logistical branch of the Legion would be exactly how it could grow in power. Havn't you ever heard of "merchants of death"? Those who sell weapons during a war?



Actually you can invade your own land. Radu the Handsome invaded his own country under the Turks trying to place himself in a position of rulership under the Turks. According to you Radu is not a traitor?



Well the legions want to invade yes?

Accommodation means to give what is desired, to help etc. So what do the legions desire? To invade. I'm sorry but this is simple english even I understand. I don't see what the confusion is about. You wouldn't happen to be a Hlaalu "fan boy" as they say? You seem very defensive and at this moment really you are just playing Clinton's part asking for the judge or whoever to "define the word is".



"History" says other wise.



According to you yes, or else why would you bring other people up?



They wanted instead of defending their country, to accommodate an enemy. You saw yourself what the full definition means. Now accommodation does not mean they suggested to all the houses that they help the empire invade their own country. That's simply retarded and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. They suggested that they become subjects of the Empire. Sort of like the Russian Princes in the Russian steppe against the Mongolians who prefered to side with the Mongols, or the boyars in the Balkans who prefered to be subjects of the Ottoman Turks. Like wise Hlaalu wanted along with others to be subjects instead of enemies of the Empire. When the others did not accept, then it became a "i'll help the empire invade." That is the logical result of the other's refusal to "accommodate" the empire. So:

Hlaalu: Let's accomodate the empire. Let's work with them instead of war. Let's give a bit of land and open trade agreements. It is better than war.
Everyone else: No.

If the Hlaalu continue these actions, it would be an action against everyone else.



Because Vivec follows rules...

We don't care what the Legion want, they obey the Emperor's will, not their own. The Hlaalu wanted negotiations and compromise to be reached with the Empire, not with its Legions, so as to avoid a war, so that there would be no Legion at all in Morrowind. Since there would be no Legion at all, then there would be no need for supplies and logistic.

I didn't bring other people up. You did. I told you a point had been already explained several time, and you asked by which people because you had already forgotten.


Again and again and again this same assumption that they wanted to get their country invaded when what they wanted was to avoid a war which would result in an invasion. And you still obsess on that "definition of accommodation" bit where it has been established many many many times already what the proper meaning for this context is; and it isn't the "full definition".


By following your logic. "Accommodation means betrayal. They advocated accommodation therefore they advocated betrayal." This is your logic, not mine, and I am glad that you can see it is retarded.


No, that's what Vivec did.


No it isn't. "I'll help the enemy kill us" isn't the logical result of "We should try to talk the enemy into not killing us."


Yes he does.

The legions want what the Emperor wants. Stop dancing around the statement. Re-read it and replace "legion" with "empire" if it is that confusing to you. Again the Empire/Legions wanted Morrowind. If Hlaalu accommodates, it means to give what is desired, provide help, help one adapt, appease, etc. Which one of the definitions of accommodation would you place in the sentence?



You earlier: "Says the people who have pointed out several times already that what Vivec-the-God-with-ultimate-authority did induced suicides in the house that was the most religiously-inclined to obey him."

You want to give that one another try slick?



The proper meaning has been established. Like there was some sort of meeting where you were invited and a majority of intellectual elite decided what accommodation means? Sorry they already did that and they put it in a dictionary and when you wish to accept the fact of what is written in there I think this conversation will move on. Until then you can debate the meaning of what it means all you want.

Let's put it this way, i'm assuming you are American and if you are not I will make a more proper example. The example with my countries seem to be ignored or go over your head. So let's say Iran invades America. If you accommodate the Iranians, what would that mean to you? "Here you can have North Carolina. Want to buy an orange or two?" That fits under "Giving a piece fo land and providing trade."



I just want to know, and i mean no offense, are you in high school? My logic isn't accommodation means betrayal. Accommodating an enemy is betrayal. It's like me saying, six with a stranger when you have a spouse is advltry, and somehow your mind conjures up the notion that six = advltry all the time. Your disk must be skipping.


Both did.



"By giving a slice of our land." Who's slice was Hlaalu going to give? Maybe they were going to spread the wealth around a bit? If someone invades your block, and you want to resist but the guy living beside you says "how about we give them a piece of your apartment" would you fancy that? I doubt it.



When he wants to.

To appease, which is to negotiate a compromise, which is to throw a bone so as to avoid giving what the other really wanted.


You earlier: "Says who?"


"After a period of accommodation, his eyes could finally see in the gloom."
OMG HIS EYES ARE GIVING SUPPLIES TO THE GLOOM THEY ARE TRAITORS TRAITORS TRAITORS!!!!!
Thank you, Mr. Context-is-Irrelevant-and-only-the-first-definition-applies-every-time. This was highly insightful.


Rather than this ridiculous and stupid example, let's try a historic example of accommodating a hostile foreign power. You'll be happy, you love them. When Hitler wanted to take the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia, the other powers convened to let him have it and pressured Czechoslovakia into giving away those lands, so as to avoid conflict escalation and preventing a war. By your logic, it means that when later Hitler started invading Poland, Great Britain and France sent him troops and supplies to help. Oh no, wait, they didn't. They declared war on him instead.

You should be happy, this example casts the Hlaalu strategy into a pretty negative light, doesn't it? A cowardly and na?ve strategy. But even then it doesn't mean helping the enemy if war breaks out.


They weren't an enemy yet, but a threat. The war had not yet really started, so the Council was trying to find what attitude to adopt, how to prepare for the coming war.


How yeah, Vivec's armistice only covered the land owned by Houses Dres, Indoril, Redoran and Telvanni. House Hlaalu made its own armistice at the same time. Silly me.


I don't know, look at a map of Tamriel. Which Great House has a border with Cyrodiil? Which border lands could be concerned? Maybe the Telvanni, Indoril and Dres, far to the East? Or the Redoran, far to the North? Which House is in the South-West, again?


When he wants to stay a god; which is always. These rules aren't like speed limitations on a highway. They are what define and constrains godhood. Wishing not to follow them anymore is like wishing to get free of gravity and then finding yourself suffocating in the cold vacuum of space. Great idea you had there, sir!


In your eagerness to see the Hlaalu as the House of Pro-Imperial Anti-Morrowind Traitors, you seem to have forgotten that they're also the guys behind the Cammona Tong. You know, the anti-Imperial mafia.

Yeah. I was totally there. There were free martinis, jazz music, and banners along the walls that said "data is plural". In that meeting we discussed that surely anyone with an elementary education in English would understand that certain words have different meanings when used in different contexts. Esteemed Professor Winterbottom, widely respected for his essay, "why rationalising fantasy slavery isn't the same as rationalising real slavery but you're still a reprehensible git for suggesting it" explained how, when a passage like:

Initially, though the Imperial legions and navy were widely considered undefeatable, House Indoril and the Temple hierarchy proposed to resist to the death. Redoran and Dres stood by Indoril, with Telvanni remaining neutral. Hlaalu proposed accommodation.

...in which several groups seem to be making proposals as to a course of action against a looming threat, accommodation most likely means reaching some sort of settlement. As with, say, native tribes sitting around discussing whether they should discuss terms with the white invaders (ignore the fact that posterity shows these deals tend to be somewhat unfavourable).

As a further example, Professor Winterbottom, who at any other time would be an insufferable prat, made the very cogent point that this the same sense of the word used in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/frontier_conquest.shtml, which states Nords "failed to find a method of peaceful accommodation with the Elves who already occupied Tamriel", and which most certainly doesn't refer to "a tranquil bed to spend the night when they've had a pint too many at the pub".

Generally it's not a good idea to argue with someone whom I recall to be a linguist (amatuer? I'm not sure, at the very least I know he's a phililogist) over usage matters. But by all means, carry on if you're feeling obstinate.

I can't help but think back to the boyars who "negotiated a compromise" with the Ottoman Empire by accepting gold in exchange for janissary boys. For some odd reason I can't think "gee they were saving my country from war." I think more along the lines of "I wish they were unified together in their resistance."



I still don't see the relevance into "other people on the forum agree with me!"



I don't think it works that way and the strawman spam is getting old. You please give me what definition of accommodation is being used?



The theory that Hlaalu once the war would be under way would fight against the Empire is possible. But the fact that they wanted to give away Morrowind's land would be a betrayel, just as the British and the French betrayed Czechoslovakia.



When you show weakness you only motivate the enemy into striking harder. We'll never know if Hlaalu would have helped the Empire if war had been fully in play but if they continued their notion of accommodating the Empire/Legions then it would be a betrayal. If anything that the Hlaalu are truley guilty of is being cowardly and later amorally opertunistic. I'm more refering to how they used the empire to weaken the other houses by being its little pet. But that's another conversation all together.



And Hlaalu's vote of no confidence sure was great wasn't it...



I'm convinced now you've adopted a tactic of misunderstanding intentionally.



Which map? Do you happen to have a chronologically relevant map? I'm left to assume that since Hlaalu is a tiny House, they don't really have enough land to accommodate the Empire all on their own. In any case it would be as if Rhode Island gave land to Iran to accommodate them. It would still be a betrayel to America as a whole, as giving away Hlaalu land would be a betrayel to Morrowind as a whole. You're a Dunmer first, House member second, at least that is how I would rank my loyalty.



Yes that is exactly what I proposed. Grease lightning slow down.



Just shows the weakness of the moral fiber of House Hlaalu. They bite the hand that feeds them. My criticism of Hlaalu isn't on the basis that they are pro imperial. They are, when they want to be. My cricitism centers around their methods of gaining power using a third party. Imagine if Redoran all of the sudden said "Hey Nords, we both like to kill stuff, let's hand out. Oh by the way if you want to go pillage some rich Hlaalu lands go on right ahead through our land, we don't mind." And then using the effects of that to become rich.

Inshallah.





Oh noes the lizard peeplz! They have seevilizayshun sumwer, feel sori for dem.

Once horses evolve enough to communicate i'm sure we'll have to stop using them too or else it'll be slavery. Who knows by then we'll be able to use robot horses...but maybe they'll develop some sort of cognitive personality and then we'll have to cut that out too!



Great example. I think you've said it best. Hlaalu was pretty much chief Moron Bird saying "durrrr maybe they wanna be friends lulz". The only reason Hlaalu has suceeded so far is because they are amoral [vulgar term deleted] and the only House the Empire could use for expanding their influence.

So to make this simple their proposition leaves us with two problems:

1. It was a vote of no confidence and while eventually meaningless it still showed Vivec that his people were split. Only 60 percent of your people fighting isn't good odds. It is possible that the Hlaalu would have fought if bad went to worse but they didn't seem as willing as the other houses save for Telvanni. But even they would lob some fire and lightning if some imperials marched their way i'm sure.

2. If they continued this notion of accommodation we'd have to look at in in the context of what the legion was doing. If the legion was fighting and invading, Hlaalu would be accommodating that. The term is adaptive. And i know during the meeting of the houses Hlaalu was not saying "so uhh, we were thinking we'll go help these legions out to invade you guys. kthxbye." I KNOW THAT. What I am saying however is that if their intent/will continued along that path and war broke out, it would lead them into conflict with the other houses. Sort of like this:

If you give a homeless man shelter you're being a good person. If that homeless person goes and kills 9 people and you are still homing him, you're aiding a wanted criminal. You as a person are doing the exact same thing, but the context of your actions changes based on theirs.



No it does not because of the context as stated above. I don't think we really disagree on that point, only that I am entertaining the logical effect if Hlaalu continued their course of intent/will into several possibilities.



Don't hump so hard you'll break his shin.

It's also possible that Vivec came to an agreement with Tiber Septim because he realized Septim's destiny. We're looking at the Empire through a rational lens as though Tiber Septim's conquests are only secular, the equivalent of our world's genocidal conquests; but maybe Vivec recognized the CHIM within Tiber Septim.