Sigh. There's no reasoning with you.

You say the Hlaalu "accommodated" the Empire's legion, it was proved you were mistaken. Then you went on a sterile tangent on dictionary definitions.

I reference points made by other people and you went on saying that they're invalid because it's people who agree with me.

You claim the Hlaalu have betrayed their country, when shown that the claim is wrong (they didn't, even if they wanted to, since Vivec took his decision alone) you claim that they wanted to because they absolutely wanted to betray their country for the profit of the Empire.

You continue to be completely hanged up on that "accommodation" word claiming that the Hlaalu apparently wanted to try each definition of the word in successive order, because surely if diplomatic accommodation didn't work then they'd tried aiding and abetting their enemy, right?

Look up on a map yourself. Narsis has always been the Hlaalu capital. Look where it is. It is not reasonable to assume any land belonging to another House could have been to the South-West of Narsis.

There is no doubt that the solution the Hlaalu suggested wouldn't have worked. To claim that it is betrayal, though, is ridiculous. From their point of view, this was the best way to safeguard the interests of their nation as a whole.

In very short: your claims that the Hlaalu betrayed Morrowind are spurious because, if they had wanted to as you absolutely insist, they just didn't have the opportunity to do it. As a House of traders, they greatly benefited from annexation since it made trade easier to practice by removing many barriers that usually exist between countries; this doesn't mean they had planned the whole thing from the start, just that the situation favored them.

The Hlaalu do not have one single defining characteristics shared by all their members, even if you only look at the leading elite: Duke Vedam Dren is entirely within the Imperial system because of his status as a Duke, his brother Orvas Dren is head of the Cammona Tong and strongly anti-Imperial, he is also a rich slave-owner so you should like him; his daughter Ilmeni Dren is an abolitionist who helps the Twin Lamps (so you'd probably hate her). That's the ruling Hlaalu family in Vvardenfell: three persons, three totally different views on the world.

I said that they had intentions to accommodate the Empire. Now depending on what the Empire did, it could mean several things. I entertained the possibilities. No need to get so worked up over it.

I didn't say your point was invalid because other people agree with you, I said that it really didn't make much of a difference if people agreed with you. In short I didn't care.

I never said they wanted to betray Morrowind for the profit of the Empire, they wanted to make their own profit.

The map is made by Tamriel Rebuilt and it shows the current territory scenario. Again Rhode Island example even if they were just giving away their own land.

Their point of view was unrealistic, cowardly and over all pathetic. And I sitll believe they betrayed Morrowind, at the very least in terms of confidence.

I know that not all Hlaalu are the same in everything, but most seem to look out just for number 1, regardless of the who what where why and how.

So the Hlaalu are traitors because they keep their interests in mind. I'll assume the other Houses do not, then; and wonder why the Hlaalu didn't conquer all of Morrowind sooner if they were the only ones with ambition.

Narsis is in the south-west corner on http://www.imperial-library.info/maps/concept_morrowind.jpg http://www.imperial-library.info/maps/obcodex_morrowind.jpg http://www.imperial-library.info/maps/arena_morrowind.shtml http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/map06.gif (note that the color code on the concept map is for regions, not political influence; and note also how the Deshaan Plains, or Central Plains, extend far to the West, getting out of the boundaries of Dres territory to reach up to the border of Redoran territory).

They are traitors because they keep their interests in mind regardless if it is at their own countrymen's expense.

Actually that map is pretty crappy. Naris is further west and I think slightly more south. Again Rhode Island example.

If, in this labyrinthine argument, we're still talking about this line:

then that was their proposal for the good of the country. It wasn't like they were going behind the others' backs.

But seriously, guys. In any other part of the forums, this thread would have been locked several pages ago. Just leave it now, 'kay?

Yeah, it's no longer entertaining

Yawn.
This is your interpretation and it is no more backed by fact than this interpretation I just had that their plan involved buying Tiber Septim tickets to the petting zoo so that he'd become all mollified and renounce military conquest in order to breed cute little turtles.

In short: yawn. You can continue to argue about it all you want; you've got nothing to prove it.

That map? I linked to four maps. One from Arena, one from Redguard, one from the very early days of Morrowind development, back when they hadn't yet decided to do only Vvardenfell, and one from Oblivion. All by Bethesda, none by Tamriel Rebuilt or other third parties.

I suspect that you have misinterpreted what Immortal Blood was saying there Gez - I interpreted his response as saying that he was suggesting appeasemant ... and it is clear that only the Hlaalu were suggesting that. As I stated earlier Hlaalu do nothing without the knowledge that they will profit from it - you cannot do business on any other basis - right?


fair comment that and good reason for Telvanni not being too keen on the Tribunal as a whole ...



What arrogance! You didn't mention it in your post so it must be wrong or improper????

I think you lost track there somewheres ... Before a part of the Chimer become Dunmer solidified into Great houses they were all Velothi in the style of Ashlanders - and before that they were part of the Altmer doings in Summerset Isle, right? Who cares if it was 3,000 years ago?

If you look at the evolution of things none of them started by being Great Houses - QED ... It's in the Lore, everyone knows that. Try it from that perspective, see how certain factions accumulated and absorbed other factions until they became Minor Houses and then Great Houses. Go back through the Lore and look at what Redoran had and what Hlaalu then claimed ... Caldera was only the tip of the latest iceberg. What has been said of the progress that Hlaalu is currently making is nothing new. That is the way Hlaalu do business. It is NOT the Redoran way - and everyone apparently is aware of that except a couple of posters in this thread.

Making it up? Is that what you call drawing sound conclusions from both known Lore and active gameplay - did you ever play Morrowind? The whole dam game is based around 3 basic character types: Redoran = Stout, Honorable Warrior; Telvanni = Idealistic, yet Cunning Mage; now what was Hlaalu ... :facepalm: ? Oh noes that's tooo hard for me - go on, you say it. Too shy - well, just for you I will make a wild guess: Hlaalu Rogue - Ohh noes what does that word mean? It means THIEF. That IS how Hlaalu operate.

I guess this must be a tough realisation for you to take , as you thought it meant lover ... you are tooo sweet and naive - beware that some rogue does not come along and steal your heart away!


What happened between Vivec and the Empire I suspect is that an accomodation was made because Vivec saw the need for civil peace and while the Tribunal dealt with Dagoth Ur ... and the Emperor realised this and took advantage with the asistance of Hlaalu. The Indoril saw thins and that they were betrayed to their enemies on both sides and THAT was why so many committed suicide ...

You will note that Ayem was the Warrior and that Sotha-Sil the Mage/technomancer? So what was Vivec and what was his true House?

I have humbly requested that this thread be locked, as it should have come to an end long ago.

Agreed. I'm going to lock this and then call another mod in to help with the clean-up, because frankly I'd be wanting to hand out a LOT of warnings.