The Empire might be weak, but it's weak in Cyrodiil itself -- in Morrowind, Imperial presence is strong, with -- as seen on Vvardenfell -- a legion fort near each important city (Balmora: Moonmoth, Ald'ruhn: Buckmoth, Vivec: Hawkmoth, Sadrith Mora: Wolverine Hall).

On the other hand, the Redoran are crushed by the Nord attack, and the Indoril are demoralized by the "depotheosis" of the Tribunal.

Then you've got the Daedric invasion. Which had (supposedly) everyone a bit too preoccupied by immediate survival than by political maneuvering. It could be a unifying factor for the Empire, since it was in a way legitimized by the attack. A "damn, it's really the Cyrodiilic Empire that matters" since Dagon's plan needed the end of the Septim bloodline to start; and was thwarted by the Lost Heir's act. Also, nothing unites like a common enemy, and the Daedra hordes were just that for all the mortals of Tamriel.

Of course, the crisis is over now. This is now a new era. Things won't be the same as ever before. And all that stuff that's not going to make traditionalist factions look especially relevant. So, House Dres did a smart choice -- even if a difficult one -- by getting on the Hlaalu bandwagon. Morrowind's never going to be Resdayn anymore anyway.

Redoran and Indoril aren't much but if it came down to it, they would be the feather that break's Hlaalu's back if they allied with Dres and Dres fought Hlaalu. The Empire is weak, it doesn't matter how many troops you have if you can't feed them. Unless a new heir is made present the Empire will fall into civil war. Hlaalu's market would dwindle while on the other hand Dres would have nothing to lose.

House Dres is a house of merchants, like the Hlaalu. Slave trade, but also saltrice, kwama eggs, guar skins, netch leather, and other agricultural products. They are big producers. The Deshaan Plains, which are shared by the Dres and the Hlaalu, are Morrowind's breadbasket. As far as Dres' interests go, they coincide with the Hlaalu's; mostly.

And wars, even civil wars, are great for traders. Regulations disappear as the national authorities lose control of the situation, prices climb as penury rears its ugly head, everyone spends like their fate depends on their stock (it does)... War profiteering is really the best career opportunity that you can open to a bunch of amoral merchants. Like the Hlaalu and the Dres. Every side needs to eat and resupply, so whoever the winner is, he'll be one of your customers.

House Dres is not a "house of merchants" it is a an agrarian house which also has a powerful mercentile system backing it up. The Deshaan plains are NOT shared with Hlaalu, they are solely Dres, at least what the maps show.

ImmotalBlood, let me see your sources.

No offense, but you seem really biased towards Dres.


Dres and Hlaalu have an alliance, deal with it.

Besides, siding with Indoril and Redoran at this point is dumb.

Look at the map denoting which House holds which lands. The Deshaan plain is in the middle of Dres territory, not shared with Hlaalu. Sources were already posted up concerning how Dres get their slaves. And I know Dres and Hlaalu have an alliance, i don't know what you mean with "deal with it." Just the history and personality does not match up. Why would Dres fight Redoran unless the latter invaded their land? (which they couldn't)

What exactly is "biased" towards Dres? I just think they have a unique political and social position.

It's possible that slavery was a decaying institution by the time the Nerevarine showed up. Going back to Loranna's RP again, there were a couple of reasons the Dres stayed allied to Hlaalu: the Dres noblewoman Vendama was among a younger generation that was less interested in being slaveholders (I should credit Loranna with pointing this out months ago), and her political marriage to Helseth became more of a love match when she saw his courage during the civil war, leading troops in the field more than once. Ted wrote in the RP that Barenziah was still respected among the Dunmer, and served as Helseth's chief negotiator in getting the Dres to give up their household troops.

Anyway, that's one possible way to explain how Dres ended up going along with Helseth's long-term plan to break the House system. Slavery and the warring Houses could be seen as keeping Morrowind backward.

Why is slavery seen as backwards? Let's look at it not from the game perspective but from OUR perspective. Argonians for the most part are rather backward creatures. Really they're just big lizards that can talk. Considering the use of argonians for work as slavery is no different then considering sheep and cows and horses as slaves as well. It's really at that level. The Hlaalu comment of "The Dres have not learned how to not make enemies." Sort of hints to me that there is an under tone of disunity between the two. A marriage between a Dres noble and Helseth also does not mean Hlaalu and Dres are buddy buddy considering that Hlaalu don't really like Helseth either. Or were you refering to your RP?

wow, way to be racist. argonians have an incredibly deep understanding of the nature of the universe. they have elaborate magical practices (soulgems come to mind). they are obviously capable of intelligent thought, not only hard labor. they have religion, and, arguably, a civilization.

the enslavement of intelligent beings is never* ok.



*sixual deviation excepted XD

I'm racist on the count of what i said about ficticious lizard people. Awesome.

Horses are pretty smart too. But do we "enslave" horses?

Goblins can use magic and have their own civilization and religion, do you consider them anything more then what they really are?

horses dont talk, horses dont make weapons, horses dont go on to major in physics. goblins barely qualify as intelligent, any religion would be news to me. they have a basic layout of tribes, no different from bunnies or dogs, certainly no civilization.

your racist because you are reducing an intelligent race to the likes of an animal. argonians are barely "talking lizards" like black people are "talking monkeys"

Which Argonian majored in physics?

Did you know ants use weapons? When they hunt slugs, they put little pieces of dirt on it's mucus that comes out in order to grip on to it and kill it.

So someone because "worthy" once they attain a level of intelligence?

No one said anything about real life races. Please don't do the fan girl bleeding heart rutine and equate me with being racist against black people.

"You said argonians aren't people! You practically spit on MLK and all black people everywhere! :violin:"

Now, I laughed at this. In game racist, you bet your ass he is. I guess some people would say the same about me since I think all elves should be burnt at the stake, and Khajiit should be made into blankets or coats, and Argonian Lizards should be picking my hack-lo.

When it comes down to it however, I wouldn't say what he says is no different from calling black people talking monkeys. That's a bit far. Its just a game, no need to take it so serious.


...Death to the Mer.

*Nevermind

im not seriously outraged, i just think youre incredibly stupid for saying that argonians deserve to be enslaved. neither am i saying that your intense dislike for argonians offends black people: i was providing a real-life example of your line of thinking.

all animals have some ability to adapt their environment and use it as shelter/weapons, etc. theres a difference between taking some dirt and actually *making* their weapons. physics was just an example, there were argonain mages, which is tamriel's equivalent of science.

argonians are enslaved by dres. there is no need to make up some bs excuse of why its ok and why slavery should not be abolished.

storyteller: i assume this is all your roleplaying persona. which is ok with me.

Maybe you should read better and see I never said "they deserve to be enslaved". So who is being incredibly stupid here? And I don't dislike argonians either.

Physics wasn't an example because you didn't name any Argonian. It sounds like you just made it up.

Argonians are enslaved by Argonians too. If you solve the problem there, slavery will be solved to.

this implies that they deserve to be enslaved because they lack intellect, it also implies (or rather outwardly says) that slavery is a good concept.

there was an argonian in the wolverine hall mages guild for sure. there were probably others around morrowind, and surely in oblivion, as well. just because i dont remember the names of random people in games i havent played in a year doesnt mean im making it up <_<

You guys realize this slavery discussion is getting a bit off topic? Don't we already have a topic base on this issue?

No it implies that I have no problem with them being enslaved with they themselves sell themselves for it and are a whole different species making the prospect no different then using mules to draw carts.

No, not excepted. If it's consensual, it's a pretend play; and therefore not slavery. If it's not consensual, it's definitely not okay.


Humans sold their own species as slaves, so human slavery is legit, right?

It's the problem with settings that feature many non-human races. Argonians are, basically, humans with funny hats. They talk like humans (even when they have odd speech mannerisms like Morrowind's Khajiit), they dress like humans, they have human-like emotions, role in society (when free), and so on. Comparing them to ants "because ants use weapons too: dirt against slugs!" or mules is a bit dishonest. If you want to compare relative intelligences of Argonians, you're lucky, because we can do this quantitatively in total objectivity: this is all based on games, and we know the statistics.

Here they are: Minimal intelligence score (male/female) of...
- Altmer: 50/50
- Argonian: 40/50
- Bosmer: 40/40
- Breton: 50/50
- Dunmer: 40/40
- Imperial: 40/40
- Khajiit: 40/40
- Nord: 30/30
- Orc: 30/40
- Redguard: 30/30
Smarter than Orcs, Nords and Redguards. Heck, Argonian females are also smarter than Bosmer, Dunmer, Imperials and Khajiit.

The skills for which they have a bonus include Alchemy, Illusion, and Mysticism. Ants and mules sure are known for their mysticism. Speaking of mysticism, Argonian souls are protected by Arkay.

And the Dres totally are merchants.

We're talking about a game world. Not a real one. In any case humans are humans are humans. Argonians are not even elves. A better comparisant would be slavery between altmer and dunmer (which non exists that i know of.)



I think using game mechanics to discuss lore falls under BATW.

Yes the Dres are merchants, but not JUST merchants.

in this case, the game world is real enough. its not like were talking metaphysics or anything, this is strait-forward relations between races which are essentially human.

also, i do remember seeing an altmer slave in morrowind, and maybe some human ones too.

Depends why they were there. I'm in favor for using prisoners for labor instead of sitting on their butts all day wasting tax payer's money. It would be sort of like slavery right?


Anyway my point is that it really doesn't bother me all that much that the lizards are used as mules. I don't "feel sorry" for the Argonian race when they do it to themselves. I may think "well svcks for that individual" but i'm not a big fan of group pity. I guess this topic came up when considering that "slavery was a sign of backwardness." Really? The Dres are the most cultured of the most five houses. The Dunmeri culture of Veloth itself is preserved by the Dres. Not even the Indoril or the Redoran can claim this. Hlaalu are just weak opertunists that managed to make some smart moves with the rising tide.

Therefore Argonians are ants. Gotcha.


That's assuming that sitting on your traditions and refusing to evolve is being cultured. I'd argue, to the contrary, that the most cultured house is House Hlaalu because they deliberately expose themselves to foreign influence, thus partaking in foreign cultures and enriching their own this way. The way I see it, constant creativity and exchange of ideas results in a lot more culture than rigid traditionalism.

Mules pull carts, argonians work in the mines. Just the way it is.



Since when is Dres "rigid traditionalists" if that was true they wouldn't have the mercentile system that they do or the relations with the others that they have. Redoran is rigidly traditionalist, and even more so Indoril. Dres maintain their culture and adapt to the others. Hlaalu are acultured water down wanna be imperials who's only talent in history was svcking up to the empire the hardest and the fastest.