So the existence of slavery is its own justification. Argonians (and Khajiit) deserve to be slaves because it's "just the way it is". I'm not gonna make any real world parallels, I'm sure you can figure them out yourself.

"House Dres is the only one that maintains to this day the original Velothi culture! All others have become something else. And that doesn't make them rigid traditionalists at all!" Yeah, sure.

And your contempt for the Hlaalu is leading you to underestimate them. I'm gonna quote from the 1e PGE, written in the Second Era, before the Septim Empire annexed Morrowind: "Traditional enemies of the Indoril, who have controlled the levers of government for 3,000 years, the continued resilience of the Hlaalu must inspire a certain respect." The Hlaalu always had a culture of trade and exchange. They didn't wait for the Empire to appear for this. But when it did, they seized the opportunity. They were able to use the four centuries of the Empire to rise from being the smallest and weakest Great House into becoming the largest and most powerful -- and a House that could withstand three millennia of enmity from House Indoril at the apex of Temple power isn't a house that's going to vanish anytime soon. They're opportunistic survivors. The Hlaalu-Dres alliance should be seen in this light.

He's just spent two pages telling us that slavery is justified if a) the slaves are stupid enough to live in primitive conditions b) the slaves belong to a race that also occasionally practice slavery c) look different enough. As far as being able to figure things out goes, are you certain about that?

And a Dunmer slave, which surprised me. Maybe most of the slavery in Morrowind is Roman/traditional style, and they reserve the pvssyl treatment for the agricultural industry where there is profit in volume.

I'm of a people that have been enslaved to some extent for over a thousand years. Please, just because I am willing to look into a fantasy game and not wear my heart on my sleeve about lizard and cat people being enslaved, does not mean "oh har har har he's a dumb racist." And it's really childish and ignorant for you to make such accusation.



There is a difference between cultural tradition and rigidity. The former confirms a level of loyalty, piety and honor, the latter suggests that this is done to a fault. When have the Dres been so traditional that it has hampered them?



I don't have contempt for something that does not exist nor did I underestimate them. I simply said what was true and what you write about Hlaalu does not contradict that. Yes they were merchant and caught a lucky break by svcking up to the Empire. Redoran wanted to meet the Empire on the border. Indoril and Dres wanted to fight them on their own terrain. Telvanni didn't care and Hlaalu said "welcome, we'll show you the way in."

Yes the Hlaalu alliance favors them more then Dres. But I don't see Dres picking up off of their own land to go die for Hlaalu's ideals and goals.



Obviously the Dres are not doing slavery based on race. Simply the Argonians themselves provide the largest market to buy from.

Hlaalu has been accused of "svcking up" to the Empire, but another interpretation is possible. Maybe Helseth is using the Imperials instead; learning from their technology and politics while still keeping them at arm's length. Before Helseth, Morrowind was probably viewed in Cyrodiil as an exotic land of barbarians useful mostly for their ebony and glass. Helseth is trying to unify the Dunmer under his rule, but not as a colony of the Empire.

Helseth does not equate with Hlaalu. They are two seperete entities. The point is that Hlaalu only gained power by really, just betraying their others.

Unifying Morrowind by destroying the houses if foolish. The houses maintain order amongst the Dunmer. Boethiah said "divide amongst yourselfs and then come close together." I understand what is meant by this and that is, that people when unified into one will divide based on vague untouchable entities and reasons. If you already divide the people and make them rally around a House, and then have the orbit of the houses go around the base of the Velothian law, then there is order maintained. If you destroy the houses and unify everything you run the risk into everythin splintering a milliong different directions with no order.

There are risks of attempting to unify by removing the Houses, but there are also great rewards to be had. The rise of Absolutism in Europe was very similar, the Monarchs had to greatly reduce the power of the nobility (and the Church). In France, the monarchy was successful, while In the Holy Roman Empire, the Habsburgs failed. Yes, I'm aware this is a very shallow anolysis and there were many more factors at play in both cases.

Helseth doesn't seem to be trying to completely destroy the concept of the Houses, he's trying to remove their power. He'll have to come up with ways to give Morrowind proper administration, but there are several possibilities. I think it's most likely that he's trying to weaken the Houses as much as possible before building them back up to function as puppet 'governments' for maintaining order and the like. Now, if he is trying to completely destroy the Houses, then he'd likely attempt using nationalism to unify Morrowind. I think that even if he doesn't completely destroy the Houses he'll still play off the "We're all Dunmer" card.

Especially not when he's reinstating the Grand Council of Great Houses.

But taking their power away is just as well as destroying them, at least function wise.

The "we're all Dunmer" card only works until a house like Hlaalu finds it more profitable to go and say to an invasion force "here's the front door. If you need anything let us know."

I don't see Helseth as lying down for the Imperials, Nords, or any invader. Now that the Oblivion Crisis is past and the Empire is effectively headless, Helseth is probably in a stronger position if anything.

Maybe he's like the Scots hero Robert the Bruce, who went to any length to become king of the Scots and who loved his people, but who also collaborated with the English at times, recognizing their power. As far as I can see, Robert the Bruce was a manipulative and occasionally treacherous man (see the murder of John Comyn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_the_bruce ) but also brave, and no one's puppet. It's probably the same with Helseth; he grew up among the Imperials but was forced to flee more than once with his mother Barenziah, teaching him that he would never be secure without his own kingdom.

Again my criticism is not of Helseth but of House Hlaalu. If for example the Akavirians invaded tomorrow with the Empire so weak I could see them siding with the invaders just so they maintain their position of superiority. Why not? They did it before.

And then they'd have a monopoly on Glass and Ebony instead of the EEC and rule all of eastern Tamriel. Are you criticizing them for being the jerks who always get the girl?

I just find them to be traitors in the way they acted. Say if Canada invaded America from the north and Maine all of the sudden was like "Sure Canada you can rule us, go right on in" and because of it Maine becomes the strongest state (weird example just go with it) wouldn't that kind of bug you. I don't know maybe you aren't American so that might not click.

I live in Maine, so that would be groovy.

Okay what if they offered the same to Montana...still groovy?

I'm curious as to whom the Hlallu betrayed. Morrowind internal politics has always involved rivalry. It's not as if the Hlallu said to the Redoran "Hey, don't worry. We got your back," and then turned around and walked away when Redoran needed them most, or anything. They also didn't betray the Tribunal: Vivec is also an accommodating fellow. It seems to me the only "crime" they are guilty of is being able to accept and adapt to a change in the status quo, which is no crime at all, IMO.

And if things were finally obviously, totally falling apart in Washington DC, I totally would not mind if some of the northern states took an offer from Canada. Locally, I'd be rooting for a resurgence of the Bear Flag Republic...

Boethiah tells them to unite after they seperated into the Houses. And yes the houses were seperated but Morrowind was still its own country. Redoran is partially to blame for their own stupidity. They should have listened to Dres and Indoril who said they would fight the Empire on their terrain. A defensive strategy would have worked better.

No the Hlaalu "crime" is helping an invading power to assume control. That is called betrayel of one's nation. Excuses can be made here and there but a traitor is a traitor.

its the same 'crime' committed by vivec. the hlaalu are adapting imperial culture to their own and appeasing the empire. it would be much worse if everyone resisted and the empire took complete authoritarian control over morrowind.

The Armistice wasn't decided by the Hlaalu, but by Vivec the God himself, on His own accord. Many Indoril committed suicide after this, because they couldn't reconcile their absolute fanatical faith in their Living Gods with what seemed to them a betrayal. This was the beginning of the downfall for the Indoril, as they lost most of their elite and thus a lot of political power.

Saying it's the Hlaalu who are responsible for the Armistice is silly. The Hlaalu was the weakest and smallest house. If they were responsible, as in your failed Maine metaphor, the other houses would have ganked them good. No, it was Vivec who was responsible. The Hlaalu simply seized the opportunity while the other Houses wallowed in angst.

There was no military confrontation (other than maybe a couple of skirmishes as the armies approached the borders). The annexation of Morrowind was peaceful, and the negotiations and resulting treaty was strictly between Vivec and Tiber Septim. The Houses weren't consulted, none of them. The Temple wasn't consulted either. The Master of Morrowind merely put everyone in front of the fait accompli.

So, no. It's not the same crime committed by Vivec. The Hlaalu did nothing else than finding out how best to take advantage of the new rules of the game. The "crime" is 100% on the shoulders of the Thief, who by the way remembers well how the previous war with the previous Empire -- the Four Score War with the Reman Empire -- fared.

Blasphemy. United we stand, divided we fall.

Your names have been added on the list :deal: .

Die, Imperial scum! :gun: :flamethrower: :wacko: :ahhh:

No because Vivec did not welcome the invaders in. After the long and hard fought war he accepted the treaty because Vivec's side was not unified so they couldn't put all forces up against the Empire. It isn't the same, because Hlaalu agreed to help the Imperials invade more or less while Vivec simply signed an armestrice.




It wasn't decided by Hlaalu but in large part it was because Hlaalu aided an invading force. You must agree that that was an aiding factor to the Imperial side.

I wish you would not put words in my mouth because I did not say Hlaalu decided the armastrice, I said that they betrayed the other houses by siding with an outside force. And that is how they became strong.

Factcheckers awaaayyyyyyyyy!

And even if that was right, it would have invalidated the second part of your post because Hlaalu would have been part of that "long and hard fought war."

I'm speaking of the War against Reman which I believe was 80 years. I may be wrong but didn't Hlaalu accomodate them?

How the heck would Hlaalu have accommodate anything? IIRC Vivec had simply made the decision to ask for terms, but the war never ended because Reman died and all hell broke loose. He signed the Armistice, the important one, with Talos before major hostilities, as he remembered how bad the Eighty Years War was, and knew that Talos made old Reman look like a kitten.