Well, nothing really is. Publishers know that, but their stockholders don't, so it's easiest to just slap on some DRM and tell your investors that everything possible is being done to protect their investment, whether it actually ends up helping or hurting.

Not buying due to any DRM is silly in my opinion. Not buying due to more intrusive Ubisoft or malware-like Securom implementations makes sense though.

That is true to some extent, but Steam does use resources, and a lot of us don't have high end pc's. We need every extra memory computation we can get. Also, I dunno if you were aware of the save game debacle of FO:NV where the autosaves were corrupted (which was a problem that was CAUSED by steam).....it was a slap in the face to realize that you just lost 5 hours of gameplay. Bottom line is, people don't want to install extra software on their systems, and truthfully, they shouldn't have to.

Back when Half-Life 2 came out I was vehemently opposed to Steam and all that it stood for, but I've since come to love it. I genuinely think it's the best thing to happen to PC gaming ever, at least while Valve is privately owned and Gabe Newell is in charge. If they ever have to start pandering to stockholders it's going to be a nightmare, though.

Anyway, Steam is pretty much the only place I buy games nowadays. I have 114 games on it and that's likely to increase quite a bit before the holiday sales are over. I've been a gamer since the late 80's and I can't even imagine having to fiddle with patches and links and what have you anymore.

This. On the surface Steam seems to be a good solution to the DRM problem, but in fact it's just as anti-consumer as every other form of DRM since it forces me to download and install software I don't want, sign up for an account I don't want, put's extra strain on my system since it's always running in the background as I play, and it kills my right of first sale since a retail game that requires Steam is a game that I can't resell if I don't like it. If Steamworks actually stopped the pirates then I might be able to see it as a necessary evil, but it doesn't. The pirates can easily crack the little bit of code that makes the game Steam dependent. I passed on both New Vegas and Civilization V because of the Steam requirement. Will I do the same if Skyrim requires Steam? I don't know. I'm defiantly a much bigger Elder Scrolls fan then I am a Fallout fan, so passing on Skyrim would be a lot harder then passing on New Vegas was, but still. I don't like Steam, I don't want Steam, I have no use for Steam, and I hope Bethesda finds a better solution for Skyrim.

If the game require steam, I won't buy it.

I mostly buy digital download now a day, boxed PC game are a rarity close to were I live, but I don't buy them from Steam and have no interest to start doing that.

Steam is fine. I use it anyway. It's actually good.

I will be getting it either way for the PC. I see the point of DRM, but it has never worked. I am sure that it is possible to get any game that has been released for free (illegally of course, and please don't do this) Take Spore for example, it was suppose to have the best DRM, but was one of the most pirated games. It is most likely to have some form of DRM (I hope for Steam, because I use and like it, and I don't have to download another useless program *cough* GFWL *cough*) because they want it to be as close to piracy proof as possible.

So how did Bethesda handle Fallout? That should give you an idea.

Steam. Retail versions (of New Vegas, at least), also required GfWL. Which is annoying me, because the retail version of New Vegas is ￡15 but has GfWL and Steam tacked on, while the Steam version itself is ￡22.50. I don't want to pay an extra 50% just to avoid GfWL... But at the same time I don't want to have to get GfWL when I already have and use Steam.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbsup:

The guy with the L avatar pretty much said everything i had to say in the console vs Steam discussion. I just want to add this. 10 years from now, if i dust of my copy of Skyrim and throw the disc into my 360 or PS3, it will play without any problems. Ofcause it's possible my console will no longer work at that point (i would even say it's very likely in the case of the XBOX 360) but i could buy a new console and i would be able to play the game again. This guarantee i don't have when it comes to Steam. If Steam goes down, i am screwed.

Actually the people at Valve have made it pretty clear that if Valve were to shut its doors or Steam were to ever go down permanently for whatever reason they would have a way to releasing the DRM so that people could still play the games they paid for without the service.

Yes i know. But i only have their word for it. And frankly, it's worth nothing to me.

I agree, Steam(works) isn't good for everyone & I ( & others here) had to pass up on New Vegas simply because of the Steam requirement. I have NO problem with Steam as an option. What I'm saying is that beth should also consider the fans that aren't in the Steam community for whatever reasons

@ all of you who love Steam: when you say you want Steamworks you're really saying you want everyone to use Steam whether they can or not.

Please keep Steam an option for PC gaming.

Disk check, product key, and online activation (but still be able to play offline after) are the only DRMs I'll put up with. Not all of us have good enough internet where they live to be connected at all times. Plus if that becomes, more and more the mainstream, high speed internet is going to have to become a right instead of a mere privilege.

I'm no fan of draconian DRMs either (hearing about Ubisoft's has actually stopped me from buying Assassin's Creed 2), but piracy reduces sales as well. So, for the devs it probably comes down to which is the lesser of the "two evils".

Sure piracy hurts sales, but I fail to see how it helps the companies to shoot themselves in the foot by relying on ineffective anti-consumer DRM that just drives people away and reduces sales still further, especially since DRM causes more piracy then it prevents. Go to any major torrent site, find the Spore torrents, and read the comments. I guarantee that a lot of them will be of the "If this game didn't have secuROM/didn't have authentication servers/had no or better DRM I would but it" variety.

I have no idea why video game companies even have DRM's AC2 was cracked within 2 days and I bet tons more people torrented that then bought it

I'm going to play on my inferior Xbox 360, so I really have no stake in any of this crap.

:)

DRM causes more piracy than it prevents.

My thoughts exactly! Couldn't have said it better myself. I will be buying the game for PC, and for Xbox 360 so I'm hoping they won't go too overboard to insure the lack of piracy. Bethesda is a company that I can't picture doing something too drastic but like people have said it's becoming a trend of some sort amongst PC developers, so my fingers are crossed.

I just want to clarify something that was posted about Fallout 3.

Bethesda did not use Steam for Fallout 3. They used a disk check, but only for the initial configuration. Once the initial setup was done, all anyone needed to do was point the shortcut to the EXE file and the game ran without the disk. This was even more lenient than Oblivion because the latter had a disk check that could not be avoided in this fashion.

This is for Bethesda's Fallout 3, including GotY, not Fallout: New Vegas, of course.

I agree, intrusive DRM only contributes to piracy, rather than stopping it. People buy games because they feel the need to support the developers, not because there's no crack available. (There ALWAYS is a crack available.)

DRM is not going away. If it is *so* unpalatable, either get a console or don't play. My objection to DRM has more to do with intrusiveness than any disagreements with protecting IP. FO: NV was my first experience with Steam. After several hundred hours of playtime on it, I've only got two complaints.

1. It buries the content so deeply in its directory structure that installing mods almost requires a management app or some kind just to keep track of where everything is.
2. It irks me no end to be hustling across the Mojave, check something on my Pip-Boy (the Pimp-Boy has still-unresolved graphic issues) and find myself on Steam's system (yeah, I might could remap).

Aside from that, it's about the most unintrusive system I've come across. GFWL was decent enough, but was constantly wanting to update itself. I'm diligently resisting moving to a console, but more because I'm used to my WASD+trackball than for any other reason. If gamesas wants to release TESV on Steam, I'm good with that and more power to them.

No DRM discussion would be complete without the Tweakguides' examination of the piracy problem: http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html

:thumbsup: No truer words have been spoken.

DRM will be one of the downfalls of PC gaming. I for one will get it for my XBox and have to really think about getting it for the computer. Only if the construction set is really good and we get some quality mods will I get it for the PC.

i guess thats why you wanted to create this topic, then... just to go out of your way to show how much ya trust them by saying you wont buy their game if they do something you dont think they would ever do to begin with?

why do i somehow doubt your trust in bethesda?