I intended to play as a rogue-assassin who used two daggers. Not magic. Not archery. Just two daggers. However, with news that dagger damage isn't boosted at all by the one-handed perks, is dual-wielding daggers viable? I don't understand why daggers aren't affected by the armsman perk, which boosts damage for all one-handed weapons, since daggers are one-handed weapons. The fact that they're not affected really sabotages my build. I suppose if I lower the difficulty to the lowest setting, it would be a moot point, but I didn't want to do that.

They get a huge bonus in the Sneak perk tree. I think dual wielding daggers is a viable build.

Where did you hear that they aren't affected by armsman?

Daggers aren't counted as one-handed weapons, right?

That's my point. Why wouldn't they be? They might not qualify for swords and bladesman, however.

People have been posting perk information. I've seen various sources state that it doesn't affect daggers. I thought that it would, and that daggers simply wouldn't benefit from the specialization perks that boost axes, maces and swords, but I've been told that's not the case.

I think it's because they do so little damage on their own that you're driven to use them for thief and assassin classes who can take the sneak perks that drastically increase their damage output.

Which is why I want to know if my build is viable or not. The sneak attack criticals are great, but I'm not going to be able to sneak attack everything. Like dragons. I'm worried that using two daggers will be futile, especially if they aren't affected by the armsman perk. Also, somebody just told me on another forum that in order to kill dragons, you have to hurt them a bit to make them land, by means of archery or magic. Since I intended to use just two daggers, I'd like to know if that's true. I figured the dragons would just land on their own and then I could stab them.

There's only one perk that increases dagger damage in stealth. It works only on sneak attacks and requires 100 skill. So there's no reasonable way that's substituting for anything.

Makes sense... try to stop a mace or a zweihander with daggers. Daggers are the perfect assasin tool, hence the obscene 15x bonus for stealth kills. But if the target doesn't die outright, it's better to be prepared with another weapon of choice, possibly big and harmful

Daggers are indeed viable, but appear to be more of a specialized weapon. If attacking while sneaking, you get that 15x bonus, which is equivalent to an Armsman boost of 1500%. So, missing out on the 100% Armsman is no big deal for that. But unfortunately, that's really their only advantage. Might want to find another skill to switch to after that first strike, like One-Handed or Destruction.

Assassin's blade only requires 50 skill.

who says you have to be stealthy to be good with them?... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szLlzQWatZU&feature=related

And you're right, I was wrong. That's not nearly as offensive.

For a sneak attack based character, yes. However their raw combat power is so weak that getting caught could be a reload type situation.

Option B is to specialize super heavy in enchants and poisons, and HOPE that the speed will at least make it stack fast enough that you could hold your own. However, it would be insanely resource intensive.

Actually. You could sneak attack just as well with 1. No confirmation of dual weapon sneak attacks. I think there's not.

Hell. I have math that proves that low-mid end your sneak attacks with a sword will hit almost as hard, If not harder.

Oh, btw, they can't even sneak attack right until your sneak is almost max and you have the end teir perk.

Btw, I REALLY wanted to go dual dagger too btw. I'm not hatin, its just the truth.

It would have been way more balanced if daggers got half the bonus but only did 10x damage.

Sneak attack for a +50% dagger of 8 damage (12 total) would be 120. A +100% sword of 9 (18 total) damage would still do a x6 sneak attack of 108.

And daggers wouldn't be gimp late game. In fact their sneak attack would be epic as the damage would scale a lot faster. But in a standup fight swords would still be better.

As it stands, swords can actually sneak attack for as much or more, because their base is so high. Also they won't get owned in a stand up fight. Daggers will.

Two perks actually. If you don't want to use daggers for stealth, what else are they good for? Getting stabbed when you run up to the enemy?

You don't need the end tier perk to sneak attack "right" (or to sneak attack at all), and in other TES games you could routinely pull off sneak attacks without being almost max.

I don't understand your example. What is it you're trying to argue? In your example, the numbers are the same as they would be in the game (8 x 15 = 120). Was that your point? Sorry, just not following it.

my guess is that if theyre like oblivion (theyre the fastest at attacking), theyll be great for getting enchantment attacks out first before you hit em with your real weapon. i.e. maybe a weakness to fire/magic and hit them with a fire ball or something of that sort.

I almost wish perks weren't in the game. This is killing me, trying to figure out what perks to get and so forth. If I go with daggers, it seems that I'll have to acquire perks that won't even help me in the one-handed tree simply so I can acquire the dual-wield perks. It also seems that thieves have a horrible disadvantage because there are so many skill sets that will need perks, yet there aren't enough perks to go around. I wish I could make up my mind. Perhaps I shouldn't even play as a thief at all...

The fact the numbers ended up the same, WAS my point. It will also end up that daggers, though not as good as sworda, are better in the unavoidable combat situation.

Also, I was referring to the perk you need just to get x15 sneak attack. It's at the end of the tree. Actually you gata pickup the bow perk, wasting it if you don't use bows to begin with.

What I meant by "doing it right" was that with out the x15 perk, daggers are far far far inferior. Swords will ambush harder.

Right now, daggers are just a mid-late game 1 time use only item, that you would wana drop if you lost your cover or didn't 1 shot the enemy.

This is probably correct, I would not be suprised at them having a fast/fastest attack rate. BUT they do not count/synergize with the upgrades in one handed blade skills. They simply will not compete outside of a stealth attack situation for damage output.

With all the freedom of the game I am sure they can be viable, but looks like once the stealth hits are done, you would be better off dual-wielding shortswords or anything else that does benefit from the blade perks for the creatures that see you.

Carry a dagger in your knapsack and pick off the stragglers and wanderers, then switch to heavier weapons to finish the remaining foes.

Makes sense

He's stabbing a ballistic dummy, not someone wearing armor and versed in the art of melee warfare. Even today (or should I say particulary today) knifes are last resort weapons or used for surprise attacks against unaware opponents.

That would require a thief character to spend even more perks. They have a hard enough time, as they'll definitely need lockpicking, pickpocket and sneak. Speech may also be necessary, as it lets you fence easier and I want it for the persuasion and intimidate bonuses anyway. If you want to be able to make poisons, you have to get alchemy, and light armor is highly recommended - although I will never wear a helmet, so I don't even know if half of those perks will help me. If you add one-handed on top of that, beyond just getting the dual wield perks, you're looking at a very perk heavy build. I don't think it's feasible. I'm very unhappy right now.

I'll probably just keep the difficulty at the minimum and roleplay. In Oblivion, I could just punch high level daedra to death on the lowest difficulty, so I'm pretty sure two daggers - even without perks - will be viable when difficulty is tossed aside.

Well, you don't need to invest in every single perk of a certain skill... Besides, high end perks will be within reach by the time you are at level 30-40 so you've plenty of time to invest into 4-5 skills simultaneously.

Most of the actual perk trees are visible now on this section of the forums. I am sure you could almost plan a build at this point.
And yeah, everything is viable on easy. I generally assume default difficulty.

Illusion covers speechcraft, at least for the persuasion benefits, unless you are avoiding magic on your build.

From the perk trees, it looks like each combat tree Destruction/two hand/one hand is meant to be your character's way of dealing damage. One of those 3. Daggers only have a perk at the end of stealth that is only activated under certain conditions. It just isn't meant to be the source of all your damage.