This is about character fan fic, however, it is related to complex lore so I feel it belongs here. My friend and I play different characters. I play a dark elf named Vedaa and my friend plays a dark elf named Juliana; both are females. Okay, I'm writing a fan fic that has both of them as the main characters in Morrowind as well as Oblivion (and subsequent future games).

My problem is I'm not sure how there can exist two Nerevarines at the same time, having Azura giving each Azura's star at the same time, or defeating Dagoth Ur twice at the same time... it's like, all the game events that occur are doubled, that is, if our characters exist at the same time.

How I'm viewing it is Juliana is the IS and Vedaa is the IS NOT. One is the thesis while the other is the antithesis. Both Juliana & Vedaa were created by et-Ada. Vedaa only comes in during the MW and OB games while Juliana was the heroine for DF, MW and OB. So perhaps when Juliana was created, the et-Ada felt she was missing something and they needed her "other half". That's fine and dandy and all, but how can there be two heroines at the same time?

I was thinking that somehow there could be a dual reality, kinda like an alternate dimension. They aren't necessarily dopplegangers of each other (or maybe they could be). But I want to have Juliana be my characters companion when I'm playing Oblivion and my friend wants Vedaa to be his characters companion when he's playing Oblivion. But they're not both doing the main quests together, but individually at the same time, as if there are two universes in one.
Akatosh is the time god so I'm wondering if he can manipulate this somehow.
What do you guys think? Does this sound like it requires another "Dragon Break" for it to work?

You're thinking up the right alley, but according to my personal taste, you've gone too far with it.

There is a good reason why future games are scant on details of past heroes. If a book mentions that the Nerevarine was a member of the Fighter's Guild, then someone will say "but my Nerevarine wasn't a member!" And that's bad. How this translates into general lore is the accepted understanding that everything the hero of one game COULD do, happens. Not necessarily by that hero, but it happens. The only thing the hero is accepted as doing is the main quest, its expansions, and, in the case of the CoC, select DLC. This, of course, leaves the question of "then who does the other stuff." There are various bits to it that all inevitably amount to a hand-wave. If you like, you can go with the parallel worlds thing for it. I prefer the "rumors indicate that he also..." hand-wave myself. What this amounts to is this: feel free to mention both sides of the issue. Have both of them be the Nerevarine and whatnot. But clearly skirt around the "what's really going on here" bits. If or when another character calls them out on it, just have them give a cryptic response that completely evades the issue. You can even make a gag out of it, where people keep getting interrupted or distracted by other things whenever they start asking probing questions like that.

It's your story (well you and your friend's). As long as you don't, like, marry Akatosh, I won't have a problem with it.

However, one could conclude that since every quest in OB was completely linear, the CoC could have indeed been all of them. Makes a strong case of why he was also picked by Sheogorath to become him, because he is already bat [censored] crazy! It's completely insane being the head of the fighters guild, mages guild, thieves guild, dark brotherhood, the champion of cyrodiil, and the avatar of Pelinal all in one!

At least that's how I am going to take the story in the next game.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hero: "The Hero is a mortal blessed (and cursed, from another point of view) with a special fate and the ability to rule his or her own destiny". If take this point, the destiny of hero may be either for the world even without the Dragon Break.

In my fanfic, I marry Akatosh.

IMO you should split things up. Have one of you be the Nerevarine and one of you be the Champion of Cyrodil. From there, split up the expansions: one of you inevitably becomes madgod, one of you has a run in with lycanthropy/hircine etc etc. That's how I'd do it, anyway.

Lol, no I'm not going to marry Akatosh.
I've already got a story to connect the story of Daggerfall to Morrowind to Oblivion (and eventually, will do the same for TESV). That's not the part I'm concerned about. I'm playing MW and OB and my friend is playing MW and OB. Both our PCs are the Nerevarine (obviously since we both beat MW) and the CoC. But I'm wanting the story to be that they both exist at the same time and actually meet each other. It's like, Azura picked two people to fulfill the prophecy of the Nerevarine.

A Dragon Break is when Akatosh loses control of time and it splits and you get two alternate universes until he regains control again, right? So what if Akatosh (for whatever reason) decided to indefinitely split the mortal realm of the mundus in two? Kinda like, a wizard whose looking at two crystal balls at the same time that show the exact same events, except one ball shows the events being done by person A and the other ball shows the same events being done by person B? Could Akatosh do something like that? Split or double the mortal realm? Is that even necessarily a Dragon Break? Or is that just him using his almighty super power?

You're confusing me. Do you want a dual hero? Like two people becoming the same hero in the same world in the same time frame? Or do you want a split hero? Where two separate people become the same hero in a different world/time line/whatever in the same time frame?

As for your Dragon Break bit: Could he? Yes. It'd more or less apply only to the Mundus, but he could. Would he? Unless you gave a good enough reason (or purposefully ignored it like I suggested above), no he wouldn't. Doing something like that invites too much Chaos/Padomay/whatever you want to call it into the system, his system. One where he is an Anuic being. Especially since splitting time in two essentially means dividing himself in half. Also, there'd be other... unintended side-effects. But hey! You've got a convenient explanation for skill/magic changes.

That's not quite what a dragon break is, but for the sake of simplicity you can just say it is.

Look, do what you want, its your fanfic. You don't need any lore justification, but if you want one there is a precedent for beings in TES having "others". You don't need a dragon break. The characters can exist as two aspects of one being, which may appear as one identity to others but at the same time appear as two different ones. If you want, you can have one having mantled the other, or you could make them alternative versions that co-exist thanks to a dragon break. Or you can not care and just do your fanfic.

Hey, if seven copies of Numidium can rampage all over the Iliac Bay, then there's no reason there can't be multiple copies of champions. :chaos:

Akatosh is probably never going to feel his legs ever again if everyone keeps breaking him.

Hahaha, you know, I actually truly laughed out loud when I read that. :rofl:

The latter, Mehrunes Dagon, definitely the latter. I want a split hero where two separate people become the same hero in a different world/time at the same time frame. The question is making it work while being lore correct. This is how I can explain why my friend and I can play the same games as two different players and yet have the players be companions of one another at the same time. Juliana (my friends PC) would play the game with Vedaa (my PC) as her companion here and there. Not all the time, but like, once in a while, they would run into each other, only the other wouldn't be doing the main quest. But on the other side, it'd be the opposite. It's kinda like the IS and IS NOT in a sense.

I guess it would invite a lot of chaos if the oblivion realm were doubled, Mehrunes Dagon. I mean, Oblivion would have to be doubled because the CoC goes to it in TES IV.

Perhaps Juliana and Vedaa (my friend's character and my character, respectively) could be doppelg?ngers. Naa, that's not what I want, though. They're not the same person that is simply split. Juliana and Vedaa are completely different people. They were both created by the Aedra with the help and ideas from the Daedra (mostly due to being tricked into allowing the daedra to help them). Juliana was made first by Julianos and Boethia, with the mixture of powers from a few other daedra, which is what makes Juliana such a powerful, yet sharp and keen heroine in the TES series. Vedaa was created in TESIII Morrowind by Dibella and Mara, with help from Azura and other daedra who probably should not have been involved, like Sheogorath and Clavicus Vile, etc... Both Vedaa and Juliana are dark elves. Juliana is not all good nor all bad, and neither is Vedaa. Juliana becomes the master in all the guilds (thieves, fighters, mages, dark brotherhood, etc...) due to her diverse personality and skills.

Vedaa, on the other hand, because of the mix of conflicting daedra and aedra, is somewhat bipolar and not as wise or talented as Juliana, yet she does have a superfluous amount of magicka and such. She doesn't have the desire to join all the guilds, though, like her counterpart. Vedaa is also much more immature than Juliana.

Why this subject is hard for me to come to a conclusion is because they're not opposites, as far as being mortals. It's more of like, what Juliana and Vedaa represent are opposites. Juliana was basically created in the 2nd era by Julianos to defeat Tiber Septim because he was going to conquer all of Tamriel with the Numidium. The aedra didn't like the idea that a mortal was going to destroy the very realm that the aedra had sacrificed themselves to create. It's like building a playhouse for your kids and then they get their baseball bats and start tearing it apart. The parents would be furious. And so too are the aedra over what was going on. So Juliana was created to stop this. But she was killed by Numidium and Tiber Septim (General Talos) conquered Tamriel. Blah blah blah.... Juliana is created again in the time of TESII: Daggerfall because this is the reawakening of the Numidium and the aedra don't want to see another catastrophe happen again by it. So Juliana is remade(reincarnated) and solves the main quest, etc... I guess they might have preserved her dreamsleeve soul for later use.

TESIII: Morrowind - Juliana is not all good since she assassinates & steals, but her path is directed towards doing what is right. She was originally Julianos's idea, and with the influence and convincing by Boethia, she was made in the 2nd era and once again in the 3rd era. Okay, so now onto how Vedaa enters this story.....
The daedra, like little kids wanting to drive their dad's car, want to create a mortal of their own design. Of course, the parents (aedra) know that if they let the kids (daedra) drive the car all by themselves (influence all the attributes and representations of a custom mortal), that they'll get in a wreck (that the mortal will be completely obscure and contradictory and cause far more problems in the mundus than solve.
After the hero of Daggerfall (Juliana) solved the numidium quest, etc... Arkay suggested to his father, a few years down the road, that Juliana would also be perfect to be the reincarnation of Nerevar, a prophecy told to the aedra by the Queen of Dawn and Dusk. Azura didn't see Juliana as such, though. She gossiped with her friends Mephala and Boethia about how the idea she had concocted centuries ago to reincarnate Nerevar and destroy Dagoth Ur, etc... was being stolen from her by the aedra. "It was my idea to reincarnate Nerevar to end the blight and stop Dagoth Ur. And those infernal Aedra are cheating me out of my prophecy by using this mortal whom I know isn't right for Nerevar's incarnation!" Boethia and Mephala agree with the irate daedric prince.

Sheogorath, Sanguine, Vaermina, Clavicus Vile, Mehrunes Dagon and Nocturnal are eves dropping like little kids listening to their other siblings fight on the other side of the door. They later get together and conclude that they(daedra) deserve to shine for once in the mortal realm through a creation of their own. But they don't want to sacrifice themselves. Vaermina suggests that Boethia trick Julianos again into creating another mortal, except allowing the daedra to influence what and how the incarnation is made. Boethia had very little influence on how Juliana was created (both times). His influence of assassination and plot were used, but other than that, she was purely all aedra (Juliana is basically an aedric construct). Boethia declined and said that Julianos would be too suspicious and not go for it. "However...." said the dunmer god, "Mara is a real sweatheart.... as well as a real svcker. I can deceive her into helping us."

And so, Boethia, prince of deceit and conspiracy, makes an offer to Mara, who at that time, is conversing with Dibella. He tells Mara that he and the daedra want to create their own mortal who will be loved by all and bring compassion and peace to the Mundus. "Your (aedric) created mortal subdued war and hostility but did not bring peace. Azura, Mephala and I know that your mortal will not be the incarnation that Azura had prophesized. She(Juliana) may defeat Dagoth Ur but she will not bring peace to the mortal planet. We(daedra), on the other hand, with our powers, can. We simply lack the capacity and the will to endure the process of creation. Will you please help us? Help us help you, Mara. If you will, don't tell the other aedra, especially Akatosh, for he has never looked too kindly upon our ideas or concepts."

With that, Mara, as well as Dibella, were convinced. In 3E 410, the two aedra congregated in Oblivion and secretly devised the creation of the new incarnate, another female dark elf. Most of the influence of the incarnate's personifications were the product of Azura and Boethia. Dibella and Mara were tricked, but were not ignorant. With a gathering of almost 10 daedra at this event, the goddesses wouldn't let them infuse the mortal with all of their powers..... only a little. But a little bit of magic from 10 different daedra goes a looooooooong way.

Thus, into this new mortal incarnation, the daedra poured their treachery, magic, ambition, uncertainty, hatred, love, kindness, insolence, light, darkness, debauchery, revelry, madness, control, wisdom..... in conjunction with the compassion & understanding of Mara and the artistry & aesthetic, yet erotic, beauty of Dibella. And out popped a dunmer baby girl into the mortal realm of Nirn..... Vedaa.

Following the jolt of this creation, Akatosh and the other aedra were astonished and disappointed in what had transpired. After much arguing, Akatosh decided to let the new incarnate be. Dibella and Mara explained that this mortal was to be the true incarnate of the Nerevar who would bring peace to the mortal plane. Akatosh was not convinced. However, because of his high respect for Dibella and Mara, he allowed them to keep this mortal on Nirn, despite the superfluous daedric influence that went into the creation process. On one condition though........ that Juliana, the Aedric creation (with a tiny tint of Boethia), would also be the Nerevarine in addition to their daedric creation also being the Nerevarine. They all thought for a moment and finally agreed.

For this to work though, Akatosh did something he was not fond of doing. He summoned his greatest powers to allow time to be convoluted and the Aetherius to be doubled within its own creation; a doppelg?nger of it's own ethereal existence. (This would allow, for example, Azura to give both of the incarnates the Azura's star; to allow both incarnates to travel to Oblivion with the same affects happening, though by different characters at different times). The et-Ada as a collective whole, were not doubled.

Explanation: Think of the realm of Oblivion, which surrounds Mundus, as a basketball. And the basketball is doubled within itself in an alternate dimension. And time can be represented as a long piece of shoe string. Take the string and instead of having it wrap around the ball once, wrap it around twice. Through the eyes of the et-Ada, it's like wearing 3D glasses. When you close one eye, you see everything red; close the other, you see everything blue. Apply that to this. Close one eye, you see the mortal plane with Juliana as the Champion. Close the other eye and you see Vedaa as the Champion. Open both eyes and you see them together but not in the same dimension. The aurbis is still just one piece, but it's now split with an alternate doppelg?nger dimension. The reason why time has to be doubled, or wrapped twice, is, for example, when the Juliana does the quest for Azura and receives the Azura's Star, Juliana might have done that on the first Morndas of Rain's Hand. Vedaa, on the other hand, might have done the quest for Azura on the third Tirdas of Sun's Height. Both these two CoC's do the same quest and receive the same item.... but at different times. How it works is when Azura presents the CoC with the Star, by passing across two timelines, Azura can do one single action at one point in time on her side, but occurs at two different times in the mortal realm. Perhaps time should be doubled instead of wrapped twice. Same thing applies to seeing Sheogorath. He's just one entity, but he sees both Juliana and Vedaa at the exact same place, just at different times in their realm. But to him, he sees them both at the same time.

Is this making sense to you guys?


Mortazo, I'm super anol about being lore correct, if that answers your question.

Indeed. Makes me hope they bring back mutually exclusive guilds again for TES V. :facepalm:

Aside from a small voice in the back of my head saying "the Aedra aren't that active!" You've got my approval on the ideas. It doesn't float up my river, but then again, neither do the 36 Lessons of Vivec. Still haven't read all of them. Probably never will.

I know I wrote a lot but thank you for reading it Mehrunes Dagon. The Aedra aren't that active? As in the sense of, they wouldn't necessarily want to create a mortal to stop the Numidium in 2E and then recreate the mortal again (since she died) in the 3E to stop Numidium once and for all?

Please let me know if there are any other inconsistencies in this since I'm anol about being lore correct.
I still need to go research the Numidium more and why and how and when it was created. There's a thread for it http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=832707&hl=numidium.


I think the dual champions works out fine, though. Akatosh creates an alternate dimension of Aetherius, Oblivion and Mundus and twists time so that it "wraps twice". That makes it possible so that at the end of Oblivion, when Akatosh fights Mehrunes, they are doing it, from their perspective, just once at one moment. But it's appearing to happen to Vedaa on one day in her dimension and happening on a different day for Juliana in her dimension. That makes sense, right? It's still kinda difficult for me to explain.

Bah, need to read your thing completely over.

But, to be honest, do whatever.

I know I can do whatever. It's my story. But that's not the point of me posting it on here. I'm posting it so that you guys can point out things that are inconsistent with lore, or things that would not or could not happen, in case I made a big error in the logic of my story somewhere.
Like, would the Aedra really be upset over the Numidium rauaging Tamriel?

They probably would, but they can't do squat directly. What it took for the Numidium to be destroyed was Zurin Arctus the first time, then Zurin/Mannimarco (though he never fought it)/another Numidium for the second time it resurfaced. Though, aedra don't seem to do things with a big bang, ignore Akatosh for a sec. The daedra of course try to be noticed. In addition, the aedra seem to work using avatars of themselves or building up champions.

I'll comment some more after I am finished.

Thanks, I need help with the Numidium story. I was gonna make a new topic but we can just discuss it here.

We can talk about the Numidium here. This is your thread after all, and it does involve part of the discussion being made here.

Now, about the Numidium, it was never Talos' plan to destroy the world with it. He was just using it as an arm of his power to basically defeat the High Elves, who historically couldn't really be invaded at all, due to the combined power of the Psijics, and the powerful navy the altmer boasted. The Numidium was Tiber's ace up his sleeve, and effectively defeated them without much problems. However, to power the Numidium, the soul of Zurin Arctus was used to power the Mantella Crux in order to make the Numidium work.

Now, the Numidium is a divine creation. It was made by the dwemer so they can all fuse back into one being, and go back to the very first stroke of Padomay and Anu. In otherwords, they were trying to accomplish what most mer (especially the altmer) hoped to accomplish; go back to when they were all powerful spirits and not weakling mortals. Nothing can defeat the Numidium, but itself. In otherwords, only Zurin Arctus and another Numidium would destroy it, which is exactly what happened in both instances. Why Zurin Arctus? Well, I did say earlier that his soul was used to power the Mantella Crux, which worked as an alternative engine should the heart of Lorkhan not be there. Because of that, Zurin Arctus was part of the Numidium, and could destroy it. He ended doing so, back it took many days and took its toll on him.

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/luagararticle1.shtml
The Dwemer made the Numidium out of *EarthBones* and the Heart of Lorkhan? And they sacrificed their souls to create this Brass God. And the purpose of making the Numidium in the first place was so that the dwarves could reach the "Eternal I"? And thus they disappeared and were anti-created (whatever that means). This is starting to get a little over my head.

http://www.imperial-library.info/history/1.shtml
This link says that during the War of the First Council, Kagrenac was the one who built the very first Numidium. There is no earlier mention of Numidium and the text doesn't say if he used it or not in the 1st era. So what happened to the 1st Numidium after Kagrenac built it?

No. They very metal that is known as dwemer or dwarven is metal that had been tampered by manipulating the Earthbones. They used this metal to build their vast structures and armor, and most likely the Numidium. The Heart of Lorkhan was going to be the battery power to allow the Numidium to work, and it would have fit inside a chamber connected to a bunch of things that would power the Numidium like a robot. And you are a little off about the 'dwemer sacrifice.' Instead, they were all absorbisided (they, everyone, even the guys out at Hammerfall) inside the Numidium to become its golden skin.

So, not only is the Numidium made of metal and the heart of Lorkhan/Mantella Crux (in the even the heart can't be used), it is also made of all the souls of the dwemer (save for one). And I wouldn't say they wanted to reach "I", CHIM, etc. No, instead they wanted to move backwards instead of forwards. They want to be back as an et'ada pre-creation, a desire most elves, especially the altmer, try to reach. Vivec, despite being a damned elf, believed in moving forward with the idea of CHIM.


It sat in Red Mountain, useless and doing nothing. It was like that really cool item your grandparents kept, but it only gathered dust. Then Tiber Septim came along and bargained for it with Vivec, along with Morrowind to be "part of the empire," and he got it. But I said he only bargained for the Numidium, not the Numidium AND that Heart of Lorkhan. Vivec is a dirty, dirty salesman.

I think they do all happen. I mean, dosen't a Dragon Break happen when a true god walks upon the earth? Or at least when some super-divine thing happens. Like so: Heart of shezzar is destroyed. since Shezzar is Lorkhan is Akatosh, Akatosh would probably have the divine equivalent to a heart attack. In Oblivion, he may have walked the earth personally once again. So really, it all depends on "does this entail a dragon break?"

According to http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/luagararticle1.shtml and http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml, the Dwarves were trying to achieve the Eternal I, the first state of the Gods, before the brush stroke of Anu & Padomay; basically, reversing what Lorkhan had done. (7th paragraph, last sentence from the bottom of the page)
Luagar Anulam's report is very helpful. The Dwarves were trying to transcend the Gray Maybe; to be anti-created back to the first brush of Anu-Padomay. So that's probably were they vanished off to. But the project wasn't completed as it was intended, right? The author says that there is still one dwarf left who didn't disappear, and that could be one of the reasons why the Numidium didn't turn into a God as they had intended it to do.

And this, Hellmouth, is where the Numidium lay in uhm... oh, I never asked, where at was this brass-god(Numidium) being constructed? Was it under Red Mountian; the same place Kagrenac made his three tools to use the Heart of Lorkhan that was also found there? It's never really stated where Kagrenac was building this giant golem at.

But as I was going to say, after the dwarves vanished, along with Kagrenac (though some say Dagoth Ur killed him and took the tools), the Numidium just sat there like a lifeless robot without any batteries for centuries. It was then in http://www.imperial-library.info/history/2.shtml that Dagoth Ur and his Ash Vampires began construction on the "second numidium". Now this "second Numidium" is still the same brass-god that was built by Kagrenac that had been sitting (in red mountain?) for centuries. Was Dagoth Ur just trying to figure out a way to tap the energy from the Heart of Lorkhan to fuel and activate it? I guess that's what he was doing all those centuries right before the throe of the 3rd Era. And I'm guessing he never could figure it out. But how did it wind up in the hands of Vivec?

The timeline then says that in 2E 896, 14 years later, Vivec gives the Numidium to Tiber Septim to conquer Tamriel (although didn't Tiber just need it to invade Summerset since Skyrim assimilated peacefully?). So somehow, it went from Dagoth's possession to Vivec's.

Help me out here.