Duke Patrick's Combat Archery (thread 3)

Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:29 am

I've been interested in this mod ever since I heard an Oblivion archery mod being referenced as inspiration for how archery would be handled in Skyrim. It took a while to find it, but I understand that this is the one.

Based on the read me, it sounds fascinating. Unfortunately, I didn't find the password on my first read-through, and I don't really feel I can afford to spend time on a second attempt, should I fail again (I play about an hour per month anyway, so that's fine, but should you make it password-free in the future, as I read somewhere in this thread that you might do, I’d be happy to make another attempt at installing it). But it was an interesting read nonetheless, and I'm amazed at the time spent on background research and making in-game archery as true to life as possible whilst still adhering to in-game lore. Especially tying Damascus metal to Dwemer metal workmanship – fascinating! :)

It was also very interesting to learn that many sword blows equal the speed of arrows. I had thought arrows much faster. Still, considering I sometimes have trouble hitting the shuttle in badminton, I do see your point in making it a block-level 75 and above skill :)

Well, good luck and thank you for your hard work!

Cheers,
Godunov
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matt
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:24 pm

Your post has swayed me to do this now as it was very reasonable and convinced me you are not whining about the password but mealy expressing your dilemma.


I know some people have difficulties reading printed text word for word even if they intended to do so. (I myself have such a handicap).

However, I of course had good reasons to use the password, before the password prerequisite I spent as much time reading and answering emails about questions that were answered in the read me files ( of all my mods, I have had as many as 30 on the web at one time) as I did PLAYING Oblivion! After the use of the passwords that changed to where I may have 1 or 2 emails a month with questions that are already answered in the read me files.

But in celebration of the Developers taking an interest in my work I will dump the use of the password for this mod for the time being. The next update will not have the password on it. For now I give anyone that wants to permission to give out the following password for my Combat Archery mod :


IReadIt


If you give out this password then you must also quot all the text in this post that is the color GREEN.


You do not need to make it green text, I am just using the color to show what needs to be quoted.
(Now bracing myself for the wave of "my arrows are breaking" and "my bow is getting knocked aside when in close combat" issues :glare: )



I've been interested in this mod ever since I heard an Oblivion archery mod being referenced as inspiration for how archery would be handled in Skyrim. It took a while to find it, but I understand that this is the one.

Based on the read me, it sounds fascinating. Unfortunately, I didn't find the password on my first read-through, and I don't really feel I can afford to spend time on a second attempt, should I fail again (I play about an hour per month anyway, so that's fine, but should you make it password-free in the future, as I read somewhere in this thread that you might do, I’d be happy to make another attempt at installing it). But it was an interesting read nonetheless, and I'm amazed at the time spent on background research and making in-game archery as true to life as possible whilst still adhering to in-game lore. Especially tying Damascus metal to Dwemer metal workmanship – fascinating! :)

It was also very interesting to learn that many sword blows equal the speed of arrows. I had thought arrows much faster. Still, considering I sometimes have trouble hitting the shuttle in badminton, I do see your point in making it a block-level 75 and above skill :)

Well, good luck and thank you for your hard work!

Cheers,
Godunov

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Haley Cooper
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:37 am

Wow, that is fantastic. Thank you! Now I'm really looking forward to my next visit in Cyrodiil :)

Cheers,
Godunov


Your post has swayed me to do this now as it was very reasonable and convinced me you are not whining about the password but mealy expressing your dilemma. [...]


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Emerald Dreams
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:51 pm

I already see reports of console errors with OBSE v20b5

Svart_Vargr, on 19 February 2011 - 10:23 PM, said:
attempting to call a function on a NULL reference or base object
File: Duke Patrick's - Combat Archery.esp Offset: 0x02CA Command: LET


Will it be automatically fixed with the next stable OBSE version 20?
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Kira! :)))
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:51 am

Hi Duke,

Thanks so much for the mod, it has really made archery quite enjoyable. I have been getting one consistent error however. The game doesn't seem to be processing critical hits. I have tested this against non moving targets at point blank range. No flash, no actor comment, and no increased damage. An error appears in the console:

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4748/combatarcheryerrormessa.jpg

I am running Oblivion with SI and Knights with the latest patch and OBSE 19b. I have no other combat mods installed and I load Combat Archery last.
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saharen beauty
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:19 pm

Just tried this mod and it is truly awesome.... great job!
However, I have one question... Is this mod compatible with the current Deadly Reflex 6 mod?
When i tried, it seems zoom as well as de-nocking does not work :( Is it possible for these 2 mods to be used side by side?
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W E I R D
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:01 pm

I may need to add some of this to the read me file:

I am not entirely happy with the critical hit system yet and I am still tweaking it on each revision of the mod I release. But in general it should work most of the time with known exceptions (see below). It does in all my tests anyway.

Keep in mind the critical hit areas are not easy, they are in general the size of a softball except for the lower leg critical hits and the head. However concerning headshots the game will not allow you to shoot an arrow INTO the head unless the arrow will kill the target in the last one shot (not including the critical hit itself).

Put another way, if your arrow is not "about" to kill your target, the game MOVES your arrow from the head down into the torso or arms. I discovered this running frame by frame tests and was shocked to see the arrows JUMP from the head level down to the chest UNLESS that arrow will be the final blow that kills the target based on the arrows base damage (not including after the hit damage modifiers).

So critical hit head shots are extremely difficult to land as the target must be near death already OR you use very high damage setting making bow and arrow shots likely to kill such as my default setting of 7 or higher.

I am working on trying to find a way around this hard coded absurdity in the game. I do not know why the DEV did this except that maybe they did not want NPC running around with a bunch of arrows stuck in the actors head.

In my Fortress of Fear quest mod I have special Zombies that will die if you hit them in the head with any arrow shot. I do this by lowering the zombies health a moment before the arrow is about to hit the head of the zombie. I may utilize that idea to my Combat Archery mod as well in a future rev of the mod. But that has some drawbacks as well.

So the throat, solar plexus crotch and lower legs are really the only practical critical targets at this time.

Also, the script that detects and calculates the critical hits is on a token in the NPC inventory. So if you did something to the NPC to make them “not move” you may have also effected their ability to process the script.

Critical hits only work on NPC (with the male type skeleton, note that this "male skeleton" is also used by women). They are calculated using the race scale and the editor scale of the NPC and the bounding box dimensions. So any mod that affects these 4 items could potentially adversely affect the script.

Also if you are firing “point blank” this will interfere with the script because you will not give the script enough time to detect the arrow and do the calculations. Point blank shot arrows will sometimes not even enter the game world. They will go from your inventory to the target without “flying thru the air". They need to be in the air for a few dozen frames for the critical hit system to work.


Just play the mod (no funny business with forcing the actors to stand still) and see if eventually in normal play you get the critical hits. The easiest to get are the legs (must hit below the knees).


The game doesn't seem to be processing critical hits. I have tested this against non moving targets at point blank range. No flash, no actor comment, and no increased damage.

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Heather Stewart
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:39 am

Any mod that makes changes to combat or the control keys (such as some hot key mods) can possibly conflict. Now If you are not using OBSE 19 that is the likely problem, to fix the issue switch to OBSE 19.

I thought I had heard that some people were using DR with my mod but I guess it could depend on what INI settings you have chosen in DR and my Combat Archery mod. Sorry I cannot help you on this but maybe other players that use both mods can.

Btw:
your Avatar scars me!

Just tried this mod and it is truly awesome.... great job!
However, I have one question... Is this mod compatible with the current Deadly Reflex 6 mod?
When i tried, it seems zoom as well as de-nocking does not work :( Is it possible for these 2 mods to be used side by side?

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Lance Vannortwick
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:17 am

I am tinkering with my Combat Archery mod for a little while and updating the Read Me file with the above info about critical hits. Can everyone use RTF files? I am tired of fighting with the "no format" TXT files and I noticed that other modders use the rich text format. I assume this means that there are free readers or that RTF is universally readable in the same way TXT files are?
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Pawel Platek
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:18 pm


So the throat, solar plexus crotch and lower legs are really the only practical critical targets at this time.



I had been aiming almost exclusively for the head and had noticed the arrow being shunted into an arm or the chest. In dungeons I sneak almost exclusive and so am therefore able to kill with a single shot most of the time with an arrow, yet never get the flash, even with the arrow sticking out of their eye in some cases.

I did see a white particle effect one time when I shot a civilian in the leg which I believe to be the "white flash," however I was unable to reproduce it. I will continue to test. Thanks for your quick and detailed response.

Edit: RTF is a widely accessible format.
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Amysaurusrex
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:48 am

I am tinkering with my Combat Archery mod for a little while and updating the Read Me file with the above info about critical hits. Can everyone use RTF files? I am tired of fighting with the "no format" TXT files and I noticed that other modders use the rich text format. I assume this means that there are free readers or that RTF is universally readable in the same way TXT files are?

Yeah rtf are pretty universal files. I'd go with that - others have.
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cassy
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:09 am

I'm still unable to get critical hits.

Even with all mods other than the Unofficial Patch disabled I have repeatedly shot actors in the head, neck, solar plexus, groin, and shins and have never registered a critical hit. I am not doing any "tricks" or forcing them to stand still I am simply shotting them at an appreciable distance sometimes when they are moving and sometimes when they are standing. I have shot the shins/feet many times and have been able to visually verify after the shot that the arrow is in fact lodged in the lower leg.

I am at a loss as I seem to be the only person having this issue. I even tried unloading all mods, saving, then loading only DPCA and still nothing. It doesn't greatly affect me because I get sneak attack criticals most of the time, but I'd much prefer to kill someone because of a well aimed shot than to kill them because of magical sneakiness bonus.
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Pixie
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:26 am

I'm sorry if I missed this somewhere - but is it possible to turn off my arrows breaking? It's getting on my nerves already and I've only had Oblivion re-installed for about 2 hours. I don't remember this happening last time I played Oblivion where I had this mod installed (I'm sure it's the same one), otherwise I love the mod.
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KiiSsez jdgaf Benzler
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:21 am

I'm sorry if I missed this somewhere - but is it possible to turn off my arrows breaking? It's getting on my nerves already and I've only had Oblivion re-installed for about 2 hours. I don't remember this happening last time I played Oblivion where I had this mod installed (I'm sure it's the same one), otherwise I love the mod.


The way to stop your arrows breaking is to put them into your arrow case. Or only carry less than 20 arrows in your inventory. Just typing this to save DukePatrick the effort.

Artorius.
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Quick draw II
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:39 am

I'm sorry if I missed this somewhere - but is it possible to turn off my arrows breaking? It's getting on my nerves already and I've only had Oblivion re-installed for about 2 hours. I don't remember this happening last time I played Oblivion where I had this mod installed (I'm sure it's the same one), otherwise I love the mod.


Open "Duke Patricks - Combat Archery.ini", edit the line "set aadpArrowLimitQ.QuiverLimit to 20" to 0 should work. If it doesn't, simply set a very high number I suppose.
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jessica Villacis
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:44 am

I agree, I will continue to work on it. One thing I may be doing wrong is using SCALE modifiers with the height of the bounding box. No one knows if the bounding box changes height when the race and editor scales are used on the reference. This is going to take a while to find out with trial and error.

Edit: After some test I found that scale modifiers are needed, the bounding box stays the same size even if the scale is changed. So I am doing it the right way.

However this should not effect the leg shots if you shoot close to the feet. So on the other hand it could be that the critical hit script is not running for you.
As I said I will keep working on this as it is an important part of the total Combat Archery "package". And once is it working well enough I want to use the same script to in my Combat Geometry mod for "locational" melee hits.

Edit: Also you do know this only works for NPC right? It will not work on humanoid creatures that are not NPC such as Zombies or the demons from the Oblivion plane. My next update will include head and feet critical hits for ALL creatures. But there will be an unavoidable issue where some creatures that have heads and butts at the same height level will register an arrow in the butt as if it was a head shot. Such creatures are the pigs and sheep.



I am at a loss as I seem to be the only person having this issue. I even tried unloading all mods, saving, then loading only DPCA and still nothing. It doesn't greatly affect me because I get sneak attack criticals most of the time, but I'd much prefer to kill someone because of a well aimed shot than to kill them because of magical sneakiness bonus.

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Carlos Rojas
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:19 am

Great news! I was able to add this to the mod, it will be uploaded late tonight after some more testing and tweaks.


New in the INI file:

; The normal Critical Hit system will not work for head shots because of Oblivion's hardcode. (see Read Me file about this.)
; However you can set this special Head Shot option to more than 0 if you want this mod
; to make arrow head shots for ALL actors and creatures lethal.
; IF the Bow and Arrow combined base damage, times fatigue percentage and then times the HeadShot setting, is greater
; than the targets health the arrow shot will stick in the head and kill the target.
; Default is 10 (Set this to 0 if you want to turn this feature off.)
set aadpBowFixQuest.HeadShots to 10

This was near easy to implement because I only needed to adapt all my hours of hard work from my Fortress of Fear mod (where my zombies die from arrow head shots).

The only known issue at this time will be with creatures that have butts and heads at the same height from the ground.

I am considering if this should optionally work on the player or automatic work on the player IF the player uses this option. I feel hat it is a cheat if it does not effect the player equally.
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My blood
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:08 am

I have tried this wonderful mod with obse v0020 beta 4 (I use it because I use nGCD + Skill Decay and I find them a must have in my mod list) and I only found the same thing everyone has found using this version of OBSE.

attempting to call a function on a NULL reference or base object etc etc. Only three lines, the same lines someone posted before.

I do not know however, how is this affecting the mod in the sense of what aspect of the mod is giving error. I like to play Oblivion as a hybrid character, I like to use melee, magic and bows. Bows is the one I use the least, but still this mod makes archery really fun and challenging since it applies its characteristics to NPCs too. I spent around 1 hour playing with obse v0020 beta 4 + this mod, trying to see if any CTD or bugs happened. In fact, everything described in the readme worked. (The lack of aiming if you are moving, the 20 limit arrow quiver, headshots, moving backward risk, armor reflecting arrows slowly shot, etc) Absolutely no bug/CTD. Has anyone reported a specific bug that causes obse v0020 beta 4 (or 5) to this mod? I find this and the combat magic mod to be a must, but I also find the leveling system mod I'm using to be a must have. If using this beta version of OBSE isn't gonna make my game crash or cause major bugs, I can easily live with it until a stable version 20 is released.

Other than that excellent mod, I couldn't spot any bugs (despite using obse v0020 beta)

edit: I think I found what bugs obse v0020 is causing. It must be related with critical shots, or calculations, I don't really know, I know that whenever I fire an arrow and hits an enemy, it gives the NULL string error. Now I'll have to decide whether I'll keep your two combat mods or the skill decay mod (I just found out there's is a version of nGCD that requires OBSE v0019 instead of v0020)

Just tested with v0019b, I get only one string with the NULL error and one that says something like "An expression failed to evaluate a valid result" I'm clueless about this. One thing is that whenever I start a new game, there's a 50% of probability that I will get the notification that the mod is booting up, and the game will freeze my character. I waited for 5 minutes and nothing happened. Yet sometimes this doesn't happen at all.

LAST UPDATE: I kept testing. I seem to be having a better experience with v0020 beta 4 than v0019b. Usually for both versions of OBSE whenever I encounter an enemy with a bow, i get the following error:

attempting to call a function on a NULL reference or base object
File: Duke Patrick's - Combat Archery.esp Offset: 0x02CA Command: LET

This however does not seem to affect anything, as the NPCs carry on and attack me as always. The weird thing is, this errors did not appear in a game I loaded that I was just out of the sewers, and went to the bandits encampment, where there was a woman with a bow, and no error happened (using obse v0020 beta 4) Both OBSE seem to be giving the same string errors so I'll just go ahead and use obse v0020. One thing to note, there were suddenly more string errors in OBSE v0019b than OBSE v0020. I know this is not a thread to report OBSE issues, but since it is recommended to use OBSE 0019 and it also gives errors, I thought I would try it out and report any findings. I'm sorry I cannot detect what negative impact those string errors cause, but they seem harmless (no CTD, no weird bugs)
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Chris BEvan
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:14 am

I just started using this mod a about a week or two ago and I'm already in love with it. I am using it alongside Deadly Reflex 6 and so far the mods work together in an interesting way. Not only do NPCs sidestep incoming arrows, they also use the DR6 AI to duck under arrows as well! Marksmen Zoom is broken right now with DR 6 because of the kicking mechanics. SkyCaptain is aware of this problem and will hopefully have a fix soon.

I'm going finally install Progress as well to speed up the Marksman skill. After about 3 arrows my PC wants to drop lol
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Lizbeth Ruiz
 
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Post » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:02 pm

Duke Patrick's Combat Archery Rev 4.3


NEW Head Shot system works on actors AND creatures.

NEW INI file as of rev 4.3 So please remember to load the new INI not just the esp.

Get it here:

http://tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/files/file/514-duke-patricks-combat-archery/


I have worked out a way around the hard coded no head shots unless dead absurdity in the game using a different critical hit system designed just for head shots.
The only known issue at this time will be with creatures that have butts and heads at the same height from the ground.

If the Bow and Arrow combined base damage, times archer's fatigue percentage and then times the HeadShot setting ( in the INI file ) modified by the target's helmet armor (for example AR 4 = 50% protection & AR 10 = 90% protection) is greater than the target's health, then the arrow will kill the target and in most cases stick in the head.

Arrows sticking in the head will depend on may other factors such as if the arrow is enchanted as enchanted arrows disappear once hitting the target per the games normal mechanics.

Set the INI file to turn off this separate critical hit system for the NPC and or the player.
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Amanda Leis
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:16 am

I've been toying with the idea of changing the AR balance in my game, namely giving cuirasses and helmets 40% of total AR each with boots, greaves and gauntlets making up the remainder, shields having little or none since blocking is enough I feel.

Would helmets having much more AR unbalance your new head-shot formula?

edit. dumb terminology mistake
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Hazel Sian ogden
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:58 am

DR? What is DR? Do you mean AR?

The CS has a box for each helmet AR, iron and steel helms are 4 there about and some of the best are as high as 7.

The command I use gets this number and then for some strange reason multiples it by 100. So my formula is:


Set Damlog to GetAttackDamage BOW
set Damlog to ( ( Damlog + ( Flyingarrow.GetAttackDamage ) ) * Archer.GetFatiguePercentage )
set Damlog to damlog * HeadShots (This is the INI setting)

set damlog to ( damlog * ( GetArmorAR headarmor / 1000 ) )

if Damlog > Target.getav health == Successful head shot!



I've been toying with the idea of changing the DR balance in my game, namely giving cuirasses and helmets 40% of total DR each with boots, greaves and gauntlets making up the remainder, shields having little or none since blocking is enough I feel.

Would helmets having much more DR unbalance your new head-shot formula?

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neil slattery
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:53 am

DR? What is DR? Do you mean AR?


:blush: Yes...

Anyway, thanks for the formula. If I understand it correctly then for a vanilla Daedric helmet (AR 7.5) the fourth line would in effect be:

set damlog to ( damlog * ( 0.75)

Whereas if I increased helmet AR to 30 (40% of a full Daedric set AR 75):

set damlog to ( damlog * ( 3.0)

Which means the chance of a head-shot is greatly increased if the helmet offers greatly increased protection. I'll have to rethink my idea :)
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ZzZz
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am

My turn to :blush:

I neglected to consider this possibility. I need to correct this so that there is no way an amped up helmet will INCREASE the chance for a head shot.
I must have my calculations logic wrong as that should NOT be the case.

I was rushing to get this out and I think I FUBAR my intentions with the calcs.

I will take down the rev 4.3 and get a fixed rev 4.3.1 up today.

Sorry, I need to slow down and not release in a rush.


:blush: Yes...

Anyway, thanks for the formula. If I understand it correctly then for a vanilla Daedric helmet (AR 7.5) the fourth line would in effect be:

set damlog to ( damlog * ( 0.75)

Whereas if I increased helmet AR to 30 (40% of a full Daedric set AR 75):

set damlog to ( damlog * ( 3.0)

Which means the chance of a head-shot is greatly increased if the helmet offers greatly increased protection. I'll have to rethink my idea :)

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Stay-C
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:56 am

This is the new calc that I am testing right now:

set TmpNum to ( GetArmorAR headarmor ) <------- this is the AR of the helmit * 100 so a 4.5 AR helm would be 450

if TmpNum > ( ( GetGameSetting FMaxArmorRating ) * 10 ) <----------- normally 85 so this would be 850
set TmpNum to ( ( GetGameSetting FMaxArmorRating ) * 10 )
endif

Set TmpNum to TmpNum / 1000 <----- this would now be 0.45 with a helm AR of 4.5

set TmpNum to 1 - TmpNum <--- for actors with no helmit. TmpNum now 0.55

set Damlog to Damlog * TmpNum <---- So Damage by the bow and arrow is reduced down to 55% of what it was from an AR 4.5 helm.
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Khamaji Taylor
 
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