[RELZ] Duke Patricks Combat Archery Mod

Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:49 pm

As long as another mod like DR dose not effect the trajectory of the arrow itself and only moves your bow around then it might be ok...er...on second thought probably not. Because if two mods change the direction the arrow is moving then you will have a slight conflict. Either the arrow will fire extremely off mark as the two mods add their own trajectories to the arrow or the two trajectories will cancel out and prevent the arrow from missing as much as it should.

On the third thought this may be realistic anyway, as such things (bow sway from holding the bow, movement bobbing, and bad aim from lack of experience) all DO combine together in real life...so maybe this wold be OK after all.

EDIT: oh well no they will not work together, I just now tried DR bow sway with my mod and the issue is they call mouse movement commands at the same time and so in the end only ONE of them wins the mouse control, the other will not work properly. :shrug:


This gets into the realm of "Emergent gameplay" I have been advocating this kind of game design for longer than there was a term for it. My mods do a lot of this kind of thing internally. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not but only because of the execution of the concept not because the concept is bad. I am a BIG supporter of Emergent gameplay and will be encouraging DEV to do this in the future of PC games. (they are just now starting to look at this as the next step of game design.) So go for it and tell us how it turns out!

Bowsway was in the original first run of my SCA Archery Combat mod (this incarnation of my old mod still has scripts in it called bowsway but they were change to do other things.) However my play testers and the WIP posters did not like bowsway so I took it out back then. But I do like it, so it will go back in this mod, but it will be optional.

This is how it will work:

As the mod is now most of the mod's penalties will be drastically diminished at higher marksman levels.
However at high marksman levels you also get the ZOOM feature from the game. So now
All the "sniper" fun is unlocked by the game. And now breathing really makes a big difference.

As you go into zoom mode you will have a set number of seconds (as you hold your breath) before the breathing sway effect begins. Endurance will determine this timer duration. Fatigue percentage will determine how drastic the sway is (how hard you are breathing). Once the timer is up you may either shoot with the breathing sway effect messing with your shot or zoom out then zoom in again to catch your breath and hold it again.

The Duration is not "how long you can hold you breath" but rather how long you can hold your breath comfortably and thus not squirm around shaking the bow.


You will hear your heat beat when you get close to releasing your held breath as a warning, and a breath sound effect when you do release your breath.



Is it possible to use both this mod and Deadly Reflex - Breathing motion, Head Bobbing and Bow Sway (the latter part)? They both seem to introduce a chance to miss depending on player's skills, but the latter one has a cool visualization of that chance through actual bow swaying. Wouldn't using both of these mods double one's chances to miss?

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Bellismydesi
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:42 pm

The only mistake I made here is not explaining this in the read me file. I need to do this for the next update.
Thanks for the explanation. I didn't know the part about damage applied to a bow when fired being dependent on the damage it inflicts. That is surely an argument for enabling health balancing.

I still like the idea of having to choose between a powerful (high damage) but fragile, and a weaker but more durable bow, but I see that this isn't really the case with vanilla stats either, so its not much variance that is lost by making all bows having 3xdamage for health.

To make this clear turning off the pricing for the bows does not (should not) turn off the health balancing. Health for bows is not x3, it should be in proportion with the damage multiplier. If I am wrong about that I need to change this but I thought that is how I wrote the script.
I am pretty sure that health for bows is 3 x the damage (after your multiplier), i.e. "3 x (damage mult) x (original damage)", and the price is exactly the same. So the bows above will all get health and value set to 210 if the damage multiplier is 7.

I wondered a bit about having the health stat change being dependent on not disabling the price change, but forgot to mention it.

Otherwise I would have players complaining that the bows are bursting too easily too soon. I do not see an easy way around this, but you know my script well enough to change this for your own personal use I guess, as long as you understand now what the repercussions will be.
As said above, I didn't know that a bow bursts faster if its damage is increased. With that info I agree that adjusting the health is a good idea. I have a few ideas for this particular part of your script, but I'll take that in PM. :)
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Gracie Dugdale
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:46 am

Right right ...yes that is what I intended, I remember now.

The base health factor goes up proportionally with the damage (as is needed for balance) and then 3 times more
because the vanilla bows would burst WAY to soon (after a day or so of use) for immersion reasons to begin with.

Even 3 times may not really be enough for realism, but it seems right in game play (immersion).

I am working on the Breathing and bows sway feature now, but I will check out your PM soon.
I just do not want this to get too complicated, as we discussed in PM I like the KIS approach and I try to keep
to the medieval weight, speed and damage formula (rather than game-ish stat juggling ).

But if you have anything that fits in my design approach and my mod philosophy I would love to consider it!



I am pretty sure that health for bows is 3 x the damage (after your multiplier), i.e. "3 x (damage mult) x (original damage)", and the price is exactly the same. So the bows above will all get health and value set to 210 if the damage multiplier is 7. SNIP>>> With that info I agree that adjusting the health is a good idea. I have a few ideas for this particular part of your script, but I'll take that in PM.

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Poetic Vice
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:14 am

Rev (1.9) Now on TesNexus for uploading.

Get it here:

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=29831


Rev 1.9 Breathing bow sway if you are in zoom sniper mode, but you can also hold your breath!
This feature is optional. You may turn it off in the INI file. Also fixed some small bugs related to the sound effects.


Sniper Mode Hold Breath and BowSway
-----------------------------------

This feature is optional. You may turn it off in the INI file.
As the mod is now most of the mod's penalties will be drastically diminished at higher marksman levels. However at high marksman levels you also get the ZOOM feature from the game. So all the "sniper" fun is unlocked by the game. And now breathing really makes a big difference.

As you go into zoom mode you will have a set number of seconds (as you hold your breath) before the breathing sway effect begins. Endurance will determine this timer duration. Your Fatigue Percentage will determine how drastic the sway is (how hard you are breathing).

Once the timer is up you may either shoot with the breathing bow sway effect messing with your shot or zoom out then zoom in again to catch your breath and hold it again.

The Duration is not "how long you can hold you breath" but rather how long you can hold your breath comfortably and thus not squirm around shaking the bow.

You will hear your heart beat when you get close to releasing your held breath as a warning, and a breath sound effect when you do release your breath.
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Melissa De Thomasis
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:41 am

Thanks for the update, spookyfx!
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Oyuki Manson Lavey
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:59 am

You are welcome, now I think, I think I can finally finish playing my new PC.

(Oh wait I have to fix a small issue and upload Hammer-blade again to Tes. For some reason MuMetal arrows will not work on Imps.)

She is following the SCA squire quest from my hammer-blade mod.
So far it is not as hard as I thought it would be to win in combat without enchanted equipment or spells.

But then I also trained her in in the safe towns up to about journeyman in block and blade before going out
to take on the big scary opponents.

This will be very interesting to see how far I can get in the game with out using magic...


Thanks for the update, spookyfx!

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Lance Vannortwick
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:04 am

God this is an on going head ache for me, I get way too much email form players that have issues because of this.

At the time these patches were great, but they are "dangerous' now.
I wonder if TesNexus will pull them OFF from their web page at my request?

I have not been able to contact the author of thess patches (as it was many years ago what he made them and has not been active now.)


No don't use those.

They were made by another author long ago way back before duke added scripting to adjust the weapon stats dynamically in game. They were like MOBS patches - except Duke patches.

Not needed and would probably cause issues if used.

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james kite
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:48 am

Last year I was in contact with him - butt took several weeks to get reply. I'll look to see if I have his regular email and PM you if I do.

Write a comment in his mods comment section saying not to use.

Maybe put that part in bold and larger fonts in readme.

that is what I'd do.
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Rob Davidson
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:46 am

Yes, I did that! But thanks for the suggestion anyway.
I also contacted the web site mangers to see if they will remove it.

I think there is a way to detect mods now with OBSE, maybe I can give an IN game warring as well?

Anyway I am suppose to be in bed sicked right now, so I will get some soup and get some sleep for a few hours...well I will try anyway...

Last year I was in contact with him - butt took several weeks to get reply. I'll look to see if I have his regular email and PM you if I do.

Write a comment in his mods comment section saying not to use.

Maybe put that part in bold and larger fonts in readme.

that is what I'd do.

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Megan Stabler
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:11 am

Yes, I did that! But thanks for the suggestion anyway.
I also contacted the web site mangers to see if they will remove it.
It's removed now :)


I think there is a way to detect mods now with OBSE, maybe I can give an IN game warring as well?


If IsModLoaded "Modname"  MessageBox "...."EndIf

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LuBiE LoU
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:36 am

I'm honestly not sure if I'm having a problem or not, but I think I am.

Is there a debug option for this mod? I've checked the ini (unchanged) and looked over the readme, but I may have missed it.

My concern is that I'm in the tutorial dungeon, strength 40, Endurance 40, Marksman 5, Rusty Iron Bow, Iron Arrows, and I'm getting no fatigue drain at all. I can hold the bow forever and get no reduction at all.

I'm thinking something must be conflicting, but I don't know what I need to check in TES4View.

Maybe I'll add a heavy bow and see if that has an effect.

Anyone have any ideas on what I can check for a conflict?

edit: Daedric bow had fatigue drain, but slow and it was being restored very quickly. So, I guess that's what I've got to check on.
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Jah Allen
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:56 am

Iron bows are at the bottom of the list for bow strength, meaning they do the least damage and use the least fatigue to draw.

Plus the more strength you have the easer it is to draw the bow. 40 - 50 strength would mitigate this "bow draw effort" a great deal.

So depending on your fatigue recovery speed (this is dictated by many factors including your game settings, endurance and even other mods) you could be recovering the fatigue faster than you use it. But once you start doing other fatigue draining activities you will see a difference at some point even with an iron bow and high strength.

I wish I could standardize your game settings and restrict other mods from dictating your fatigue recovery speed so that the fatigue drain would always be a slow but noticeable effect on your green bar, but would you really want this mod to do that with your game settings?

Even if you answer is no, I am looking at "ways" to zap your fatigue in minute but noticeable amounts even for low damage bows and high strength characters. I probably will eventually do this in the same way that fatigue encumbrance mods do it, but then I worry about conflicts with such mods. Unfortunately this is an ever present issue when mixing different mod authors into your game. This is why (in part) almost half of all the mods I use I make myself. I see many mods that seem very "cool" (and that I do not have time to make myself) but not so "cool" that I want to introduce more risk into my game stability.


Sorry I may take a little longer to reply to posts now, the new "style" of the forums has made it less desirable to "hang out" here as much as I liked to before. Maybe I will get use to it, but for now it gives me eye strain and is less convenient for me to skim the posts.

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Cathrine Jack
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:05 am

delete
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carrie roche
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:55 am

Hey Duke, I was seem to have a constant problem with rusty iron bows. They all do much more damage than any other bow that I have seen and they don't use my fatigue does not decrease while using it. Any idea what is causing it and/or how to fix it? The mods that I can only assume conflict are TIE and the UOP because it has MOBS. Here's LO

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Cheville Thompson
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:02 am

Accident
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Chloe :)
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:38 am

See my previous post on bow fatigue drain for iron bows.

However if you are not seeing a drain on fatigue the damage should not be all that high either.

Is this symbol

{}

on the iron bow AND is it on the bow you are comparing it to?

If the answer is not yes in both cases then the reason your iron bow is "out of wack" is that the mod has not completely changed all your bows yet.

There is one other possible issue but I need to PM you on this, check your PM.



Hey Duke, I was seem to have a constant problem with rusty iron bows. They all do much more damage than any other bow that I have seen and they don't use my fatigue does not decrease while using it. Any idea what is causing it and/or how to fix it? The mods that I can only assume conflict are TIE and the UOP because it has MOBS. Here's LO

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Hayley Bristow
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:17 am

I have a question for those using this mod.

I started a new PC and I am still a bad shot with my bow. So far I have only gotten ONE clear critical shot in many hours of play.

It was an awesome shot to the back of the NPC head as he turned to run (to gain distance form me) while other NPC advanced on me. I saw him fall in one shot but I got busy with the other opponents. After the fight was over I went over to see what had happen to him and an arrow was sticking thur his head from the back of his neck out his forehead.

:evil:

I am hoping that if I did this mod right that I will get more Critical Hits as I go up in marksmanship.
My aim should get much better and the arrows will hit true to my aim right on the center of the NPC
where all the Critical hits are at.

How is your experience with the critical shot system so far?
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Stat Wrecker
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:14 am

Dont think I have had any criticals yet, but probably due to mostly being a stealthy character, which if successful gives damage multipliers for sneak attacks. I need to start resisting hitting the sneak key automatically every time an enemy is near or expected.

Off topic - Is your old Magic you can believe in still okay to use?
http://amito.freehostia.com/Oblivion/OB-mods-Part4.htm#DP_Magic

I notice it is not on TesNexus, originally when I found out about your mods I started searching everywhere for references, and Arwens site seemed the most comprehensive before you started updating again on Tesnexus, but also note recently you occasionally take down incompatible mods, and remembered this one I have never seen there. I dont know where else to ask about this one, so sorry for the off topic.
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Robyn Lena
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:41 am

I'm still in the tutorial dungeon, and nearly everything there goes down in one hit anyway, so I don't know if I've gotten any criticals. Is there a text notification, or do they just drop?

Come to think of it, the Goblin Witch hit the ground like a sack of potatoes on the first shot and stayed down. Possibly a combination of a critical hit and the MMM Wounding system.

One thing I like so far (in very limited play) is that I have to relearn how to aim since my shots arc again (like in Morrowind). Sniper-rifle style bow fighting has no satisfaction.

Sudden thought as I was typing this: You enabled a way to make arrows pop out of people during a fight (anti-pincushion). Is this adaptable to allow the player to pull leftover arrows out of themselves after a fight. It looks silly to be healed and still have an arrow through your shoulder.

I'm loving things so far, even that I can't pop out from behind cover and fire off a quick shot anymore.
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Queen Bitch
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:13 pm

Oh yes I need to go back and work on that, I forget about this feature, thanks for reminding me. Yes once I get it working the way I like I will see if it will work for the player as you are describing.

As per using an arrow like a dagger. I have gone over this in my head for hours and hours and unfortunately I will not be trying to do this at this time. The main issue is that I would need to make a "weapon" out of every arrow type in oblivion and then that would not cover arrows added by mods.

I did a similar thing already with Shields (3d modeling a series of broken versions for EVERY shield in oblivion) for my hammer-blade mod and I am not eager to do that again so soon. :bonk:




Sudden thought as I was typing this: You enabled a way to make arrows pop out of people during a fight (anti-pincushion). Is this adaptable to allow the player to pull leftover arrows out of themselves after a fight. It looks silly to be healed and still have an arrow through your shoulder.

I'm loving things so far, even that I can't pop out from behind cover and fire off a quick shot anymore.

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Daniel Brown
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:44 am

Honestly, I wasn't expecting you to add it to your mod. I was actually looking for your opinion on whether it made sense or was one of those silly "movie" things?

I was thinking about trying it myself as an OBSE mod that clones the graphics and stats from an arrow onto a special dagger, make you redraw the dagger after every attack and remove one arrow for each attack until you run out.

The thought came to me because of Skycaptain's Never Die. My avatar only has one bow and a shortsword on her at the moment, and I could easily see losing both before going to Oblivion with that mod. However, she carries hundreds of arrrows and the odds of losing all them are awfully low, so it would give a good alternative weapon.
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Dona BlackHeart
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:06 am

hey i was wondering if this would work with deadly reflexs coz i love how this affects bows but i also want the extra melee combat add by deadly reflexs
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Blackdrak
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:34 pm

I am not totally familiar with the graphic "replacement" commands, so I would like to see how this is done. The stats are easy, the poison and enchantments would be more difficulty but still possible...I think.

As far as the realism of it, it would only work if you stab them in the soft targets like the eyes. Effective blocking would be close enough to impossible that is would be silly to even try it.

Anywhere there is a bone (like the ribs) or large strong muscle (Like the thigh. A strong living muscle will clamp onto the arrow and hold it. ) you would not be able to press the arrow in deep enough before the shaft snapped because your hand cannot move as fast as a flying arrow would. So in the heat of battle much of your your momentum would work on the arrow shaft at shearing angles and deform the arrow not transfer into the target . (I.E. your pushing force would not be directly behind the shaft but would be placing stress on the shaft sideways.)

And that is not yet even considering the target's armor.

A script for this would need to somehow take into account the difficulty of hitting the eyes or throat of your target. It would be very difficult in the heat of battle, but this would be a debilitating attack if successful.

One thought that came to me was that, like a lesser power you would get a limited number of times per day you could do this attack. In this way high BLADE (not marksman) with high agility would give you more times you could do this
and any character with too low a skill set would not be able to do it at all.

This is a VERY simple way to deal with the fact that this is possible but not something you can do all day long when ever you want to. On the other hand an artificial limit like this is one of the types of games mechanics I tend to dislike. But in this case it might be acceptable.



Honestly, I wasn't expecting you to add it to your mod. I was actually looking for your opinion on whether it made sense or was one of those silly "movie" things?

I was thinking about trying it myself as an OBSE mod that clones the graphics and stats from an arrow onto a special dagger, make you redraw the dagger after every attack and remove one arrow for each attack until you run out.

The thought came to me because of Skycaptain's Never Die. My avatar only has one bow and a shortsword on her at the moment, and I could easily see losing both before going to Oblivion with that mod. However, she carries hundreds of arrrows and the odds of losing all them are awfully low, so it would give a good alternative weapon.

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Charlie Sarson
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:02 am

I have looked over the OBSE graphics commands and they look very straight forward. This has my curiosity going, so I may try to do this myself for this mod.

But I will make it an option so you can turn it off in my mod so that you can use your own version if you do not like the way I implement it in this mod.

In this mod it will only be something an extremely high level character will be able to do without a lot of luck.

I am thinking about an agility and blade skill of over 90. Probably I will use a similar script that I created for my wood stakes (to hit the vampire heart) to determine if you hit the eyes. And I will keep the block skill down to zero while the arrow is equipped as a dagger. And the arrow you use will not have the bow enchantment or poisons on the arrow as that is how the game was made (to only be on the arrow once it is fired.)

I will multiply the damage done to the target many times to mimic a critical and debilitating hit, however I will also hold the player's blade skill down to 0 (while this arrow is equipped as a dagger) so that all the perks such as power attacks cannot be used. That will be very tricky, because I need the blade skill to be high to do the attack in the first place...

For simplicity I may only use agility then as the governing attribute for the attack.

You are welcome to also use any of my ideas on this "hand held arrow as a dagger attack idea"as it was your idea to use the model copy commands in OBSE that makes this thing practical to do in the first place. Either way I will still give you credit for this attack in my read me file. Eeeerr.... that is if I can pull this off. I am still worried about some of the details of making this actually work.

If I cannot make this work within my expectations (If it ends up not feeling right because of such things as the dagger sound effects the game will use and is impossible to stop at this time with current commands) I will abandon this idea (single attack to the eyes with a hand held arrow) as I have other projects I need to do.

For example I have a new idea on how to allow the player to shoot two arrows at one time. And this will require 3d modeling. which is the ONLY mods I am suppose to be doing anyway.
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Luna Lovegood
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:24 am

I suspect you'll implement it better than I ever could. Even if my scripting was up to snuff, I know too little about arrows and combat in general.

BTW, last night I died in the game, ended up in Oblivion and lost both my sword and bow, all I had was a bunch of arrows and an iron tanto I had liberated from some poor schmuck barbarian just prior to dying.
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Marquis T
 
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