Yet another insult

Getting rid of an excellent system that was flawed only to put in place a dumbed down approach is not really something that can be argued for.

The sad fact is it is this dumbed down streamlined gaming probably means increasingly complicated development. For every new skill added one must make an entire new perk tree to cover for the effects that an attribute system handled very simply. Instead of using the tech tree to unlock skills you need hundreds of perks for plus ups where you previously needed..what?....8 attributes. :facepalm:

So you trade in 8 attrbutes for a health meter and 280 perks that do the same thing and you:

- limit yourself to a couple dozen skills when you could have 2-3 times as many
- have separate skills with no simple method to link them together
- have to pull out your speadsheets and tech maps in order to choose pluses or minuses of perking "strong back" or "slash hard" over "unlock x ability"...

Debated to death, not getting into it. Look up the millions of threads about this for counter argument...

That's dumbing down because...

Mainly because all of those combined skills/weapons/spells did the same thing.

Please explain what was the difference between a sword and an axe in Morrowind...

This guy gets it, what's so hard to understand?

It was a horrible system and noone but the mouthbreathers liked grinding Minor Skills.

18 Talent Trees is anything but dumbed down or streamlined, this is just you putting your own opinion on things.




It's simply his opinion, gladly Bethesda disagree with you both and the game will be better. No more Minor Skill grinding for you.

Wow, I can't believe I read that. I actually had to double-take it a few times to make sure I wasn't hallucinating.


The attribute system was the epitome of arbitrary and burdening. Constantly reminding the player of the background mechanics of the game, through their use of that terrible "Multiplier system". Most (Not all) attributes bled into other effects and only created an illusion that they were meaningful. Intelligence is the most obvious example, as INT = MAGICKA and nothing more. Their attribute system was flawed at it's very core, calling it an "Excellent system" is seriously the stupidest thing I've seen on these forums.


Attributes may create more 'anchor points' than perks, but at the end of the road, they wind up having the same amount of impact on the game. The Perks just deliver them in a more meaningful per-level fashion. What's odd is people crying "Depth" for character development, when in Morrowind, every character ended up the same, except for Race and Birthsign. 100attributes, 100skills, And nothing more. Explain that one away. (inb4 roleplay)

I won't rehash the entire debate on demand, sorry. We could do it til death & still be on opposite ends of the arguement.
Removing substance & adding flash doesn't equal better, imho.

Try removing dual-wielding from a D&D game and you'd see the same outcry that's occurring here with the loss of attributes. It's one of the most popular features of that system. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've seen a post asking for that ability in Oblivion, I'd be a rich man.

Agreed. Which is why I'm pleasantly surprised they added Substance (fact) and flash (fact) when compared with Oblivion.
:rock:

I think you won't "Rehash" the argument because you don't actually have an argument. I agree that removing substance and adding flash is a mistake, but the basis of the argument is wrong. From everything I've read, they're adding more substance than was present in either Elder Scrolls games. Nobody has actually said why attributes added depth. Just that they're gone and Bethesda should be beheaded for it.



Here's the problem though. I know people liked Attributes, nothing I say will change that. What I have a problem with, is people arguing in favor for the wrong reasons. The fact of the matter is, they didn't actually add any more depth to the game itself, at least no more than what the Perk system will add. The argument is that Skyrim will be less deep than Oblivion or Morrowind, which just doesn't hold any ground, at least not yet. Nobody will really know until we have a full perk tree.

If people have a problem with the direction it's taking, IE more engaged and less passive. (Morrowind is a very passive experience overall), that's fine. I can't change their tastes. But attempting to belittle the design with an unfounded sense of elitism is childish.

We need more concrete info before this debate can truly lead to a non-biased conclusion.
In the end, I do want Skyrim to be great. From my perspective that possible outcome is still dubious, not guaranteed. Let's leave it at that.

It wasn't an excellent system, it svcked big time. There were far too many aspects of it that didn't even make sense. How is improving my Light Armour skill supposed to increase my Speed for instance? There was absolutely no logic to that one. There were so many flaws with the system that it was easier just to scrap it altogether.

Just to frame the following: ugly_guy I've seen you post a lot of well-thought out arguments, and I usually agree with what you say. But I'm pretty deep into the "sacrificing complexity to please the masses" camp. Details below, and YMMV, of course. I'm going to try to respond to several of your arguments from this thread but covering all of the details would take a long essay, so I'm going to paint broad brushstrokes and hope you can see where I (and others) are coming from.

Morrowind had a fair number of stats/skills that were removed for Oblivion and are being cut a bit more for Skyrim. 2 quick examples:

• Weapons used to have chop/thrust/stab options, with every type and sub-type of weapon varying across all 3 stats.
  
• Armor skills used to include: Unarmored, Light, Medium, and Heavy skills. But the difference went deeper. Combining Unarmored with Dodge and/or Sanctuary provided more options for monk and mage characters.
  
• BGS implementation of all of the above was poorly balanced and leveraged, but the fact that these stats existed allowed modders to balance and expand the system into something meaningful that had significant, maybe profound effects on gameplay. (The last statement is true, especially true, for attributes as well.)
  
• A random real world example: standard Gaul equipment was javelin, throwing axe, sword, shield. Javelins would be used at medium-long distances, followed by axes at short range (to break shields), then swords and shields were deployed for close-quarter combat. You need a variety of stats on both weapons and armor to differentiate and to give weapons significance--beyond cosmetics. If javelins don't travel far enough, they become pointless. If throwing axes travel too far or not far enough, or don't move fast enough, they become pointless. If the type of damage they inflict isn't balanced with armor stats, their effectiveness is reduced, or they become pointless.
  
• EDIT: The point? Stats provide differentiation, which creates the opportunity for deeper gameplay. Also, for some, combat is just plain more fun.

EDIT2: Just to demonstrate that I'm not just talking about combat, voice dialog is another easy example. I like voice dialog, most people like voice dialog, but removing the text option severely gimped NPC interaction.Yes, there was a lot of repetition in Morrowind, but there was a huge amount of additional interaction as well.

One of your previous arguments that attributes were useless was overstated even for vanilla, but where attributes (and all stats in general) really shined was their use by modders to make gameplay more engaging and fun. You didn't have to see the formulas and spreadsheets, you experienced the effects in game. Use of fatigue and many other combat effects mods took Morrowind, and even more so Oblivion (and FO3 and FONV), far beyond what BGS provided. Combat became more fun, and many strategic and tactical options became possible. BGS has never made full use of their underlying engine, but the fact that they provide a lot of building blocks allows others to come in and refine gameplay--and honestly, refine is a severe understatement.

I think the general theme of all of my stats posts is: yes, BGS doesn't do a great job of game balance and leveraging their own engine, and yes, some people don't care about game mechanics and are fine with a series of cosmetic choices for weapons, armor, spells, NPC interaction, etc. There's nothing wrong with that, we're all looking for different things in the games. But as BGS continues to chop underlying stats, modding the game in sophisticated ways becomes more difficult (and some options may become impossible) and that's a bummer.

For the umpteeeth time...you are commenting on the design of the system, not the system itself.



18 talent trees with 280 perks....18 skills.

With an attributes system you could have 50-100 skills. And keep your 280 perks for actually unlocking skills and abilities instead of "grinding" plus ups. Without attributes you would need 600-1200 perks to have that many skills where 8 attributes would have done the job quite well. It would be impossible to work out all the interactions of 600-1200 unlinked interactions in 50-100 tech trees.

Tell me again you don't see the limitations?

I'll wait and play the game before spouting my opinion.

I'm anxious to try it. Not excited, but anxious.

How are you supposed to get 100 skills? Are you going to have one for standing around and picking your nose? Because that's what a system like that would boil down to. You'd end up with so many minor skills that they would essentially be meaningless. It's much better to have less and actually have them count for something than tossing in a bunch of fluff skills that add nothing of any consequence to the game. And that still wouldn't address the bizarre correlations you get when trying to attach a skill to an attribute. Like how is casting an Illusion spell even remotely influencing my Personality? While some relationships made sense, far too many of them didn't.

Put much better than I ever could say.

Fair enough.



All Valid points (Finally!), but the actual argument, is if the game itself is dumbed-down in comparison to others. So far, I just don't see it.

But valid points aren't without rebuttal potential, so here goes!


This is kind of difficult. I thought combat in Morrowind was absolutely dreadful, because of this. I mean, had there been some different effects like, a slash from a spear briefly stunned the enemy, okay, but in practice, you were just going through one extra (Optional, there was the toggle in the menu) step to pick an animation for your attack. Often only one was useful I actually made a spear patch where Thrusts start always at 1 (Except for unique), increased the draw speed and increase the damage overall, while making Slash and Chop (Usually only on Halberds) more viable quick attacks. But that wasn't how the game was originally designed.


I personally don't like the Armor Skills themselves, but you're right that, particularly the Unarmored skill, created more opportunity for Monks and Mages. I don't really have a rebuttal here, but more an opinion that could be amended by a lot of TL;DR theorycraft. The opinion being that I like that striking a character is an actual hit. I can't stand the constant "Whiff" in Morrowind. Again, there's workarounds, but let's not get into them yet.



Let's not get into what the modders can, and cannot do. They will bring attributes back, and even more. Using modders as a basis for argument is a pandoras box.




Again, you can't take modders into account for all this. There is no limit to what the talent of those people can achieve. We have to only argue with the vanilla as a constant.

Just for attributes in general though. Their impact on the game (Vanilla) is seriously negligible. Would I rather have had them tweaked to be more effective, and more seamlessly integrated into the overall experience? Of course. But I would rather have no attributes, than the exact system from Oblivion/Morrowind lifted and put in Skyrim. It just bludgeons you with its presence too much, which kills immersion more than all the dialog and clipping issues of Oblivion combined.

Why would BGS work to put something "meaningless" like wood chopping in the game? :teehee:



Good question. Pretend you are a game designer for a second. Use your noodle and think of a reason. Can't come up with one? Maybe Illusion should be link to another attribute? Maybe it should be linked to multiple attributes?

Oh yeah, that skill is already in the game. It is called sneak.

Gold and Arrows?





I always thought of it like Charisma in other games. Some didn't make sense in that context though. Sure, you can paralyze someone with fear, or charm them with wit, but how can you "Personality" night eye?

The governing attribute system was the Bane of the Elder Scrolls. Plain and simple.

@ Ugly guy

I appreciate the need for detailed explanations, I really do.
Posting from the PS3 browser ( a piece of utter garbage that SEVERELY REQUIRES AN UPDATE) severely limits my response length though.
Were I in front of a computer at this time you'd see a marked difference in my posts length & breadth, hence why I won't go into details of pros & cons

I'm trying to keep an open mind as to the benefits of the new system, searching for more news that indicates positive signs.

I really wish we could just see the hour long demo shown to the press in Utah & other places.

I hate to double-post, but I'm going to try a quick stab at this, related to my previous post.

Attributes and skills are building blocks. Perks are modifiers. Perks are potentially a great addition to the game (if we don't end up overpowered by level 10), but they can't and don't replace attributes. If you're just talking about hiding attributes, then you're right, it's a matter of taste. But some people like to see the progress and state of their character, and in that sense, hiding attributes is the same as hiding the character portrait, hiding skills. Actually, hiding attributes is worse in terms of gameplay than hiding the portrait. I wonder how many people would get upset by removing the character portrait?

If you think attributes really are removed rather than hidden: try calculating walking/running speed, jump height/distance or any physical interaction with the world without attributes, and you either get very simplistic and arbitrary numbers (clumsy game behavior) or a fragile and inflexible system. Do you think health will provide the base variable for running speed, jumping distance, damage resistance, stagger, dodge, falling down, etc? Or will that be stamina? How are health and stamina being calculated? Dice rolls? Heavy Armor skill? Just sayin'

EDIT: The last paragraph might come off exasperated, but it's aimed at BGS, not any forumites.

Because making money ois the point of the game.... :teehee: Or, perhaps, a lower level character would need to gain in strength and/endurance with activities like chopping wood before they quest out into the wilds and tangle with the beasts? Having secondary skills like this that are tied to attributes, but not tied to leveling or perks would add a whole new experience to the game that presently does not exist. It also would have solved the whole "level grinding" argument.



Good question, maybe you should ask the devs why they did a poor job linking up the skills?



Why would a poorly developed system for governing attributes be worse than no system for governing attributes?

That's fair. I'm keeping an open mind too. But I'm actively playing Morrowind right now, and I just don't see any reason to board the Doomship just yet. Panurgy bought up some really good points already that I can't refute through Skyrim's implied design. No matter what way it's spun, removal of Unarmored was at a severe detriment to Mage-Monk type characters. Hell, we don't even know if Hand to Hand is a viable form of attack right now.

But, the isn't the overall question of whether or not Skyrim is a Net-gain in complexity? So far it seems like it is. We may not have Armor, but I don't recall (Vanilla) Oblivion or Morrowind having reactive shock armor spells(Confirmed). Trap-glyph spells(confirmed), and Radial AOE around the caster.(Confirmed). So, to me, that alone seems like a net-gain over loss of Unarmored skill (which really happened in Oblivion, as unarmored became pretty worthless there)