there trying to find the perfect balance between simplicity and complex gaming

Most games today lean towards the simplicity a bit too much for my taste. But o well..

Enchanting
Daggerfall > Morrowind > Oblivion
Item variability
Daggerfall and Morrowind > Oblivion
Character development
Daggerfall > Morrowind > Oblivion
and so on.

I tend to agree that the "dumbed down" accusation is thrown around too often.

Yet, at the same time, anyone who tried to claim that Oblivion wasn't "dumbed down" compared to Morrowind would be hard to take seriously, so it's reasonable to wonder if Skyrim is following down the same path.

They are dumbing it down for them "casual gamers" or console players who are too lazy to spend time in the non-combat parts of the game like crafting their character or are not smart enough to realize that attributes do something more than increase your heakth and magicka. Please berthesda, dont try to tel me, who has spent thousands of hours on morrowind andoblivion, that atributes just increase your 3 bars. What about carrying capacity, ability to stay hidden, magicka regen speed, damage with swords, bows,rections with npcs, ability to dodge, resist magic...the list goes on and on. this game is turning into one of them dumbed down rpgs where you run and jump the same speed throughout the whole game. I loved ES games as wen I start a character, s/he svcks. They run like a snail, they cant jump over much, they die when their magicka runs out, then slowly as I progress, everything I do improves. I jump higher, i hit harder, i run faster, and its all my choice what I improve. Gives a much better sence of achievment than just being able to sit in front of a monster and live a little bit longer than I did 5 minutes ago before levelling. Also, it removes the careful planning of your new character, apparently something that "is an illusion of complexity". NO, its not an illusion, it is complex. I have to sit down and plan which attributes I increase and what level, I have to plan which skills to train certain skills to get those boosts. If this is not complex, then why do I have to sit and think/plan it out beforehand. The removal of attributes is a gross oversimplication of the development of a character. If someone is fighting with a sword all day in, their obviously going to build muscle levels and be able to carry more as their exersizing, not just the skill with the sword. This simplication is just an excuse or wither laziness so they dont have to work all the attributes into the damage and blocking calculations, or a gimik to coax cod players into the es franchise for easy money, people who will not play for more than 50 hours and not appreciate the astound level of detail present in these games, throwing it aside as soon as a new shooter comes out, and thinking theyve completed the game by finishing the MQ.

You're totally incorrect, yet sort of correct, depending on how you label it.

Bethesda Softworks (Zenimax) is only concerned with profits. They're the publisher, that's their business.

Bethesda Game Studios, the developers themselves, however, are not. There is many, easier and more profitable ventures in even game development (Hello Farmville raking in more than any AAA game ever released and costing around 14,000$ to create), if you expand a little more, there's so many other places the developers could use their skill set, and earn much more. If you're in the art of making games as a "Nine to Five" your studio is going to quickly sink to the bottom of the Mediocre Sea. Bethesda Game Studios is in the rare position of basically being the only developer with a near perfect track record (Valve also comes to mind) which gives them a lot more creative control than say, a studio that just got gobbled up by EA. If you believe for one second that "Profit" is at the forefront of the drive to create Skyrim, you are seriously beyond reconciliation with logic.

Now, unfortunately publisher and developer have to work together, because of the exponentially increasing initial investments that are being put into AAA class games. Much like film, sometimes this relationship is antagonistic. Occasionally however, it's symbiotic, as a group of investors can bankroll a project and bring otherwise impossible goals within reach of the artists themselves resulting in a better overall experience than the artists had even intended.

This is what gives games (And a lot of film) the classification of "Commercial art".


Now on to the question at hand.

Everyone's claiming "Dumbing Down" but I simply don't see it. What exactly is being dumbed down? Neither Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind or Oblivion really had all that much going on under the hood. In terms of Character development, Skyrim looks to be the deepest of all. Daggerfall may have had a "Huge" (And boring) world to explore, but the world wasn't nearly as compelling as Morrowind. Morrowind may have had a compelling world, but the character development fell extremely short, even with the precious "Attributes" intact, Morrowind also suffers from a worse combat engine than Daggerfall. Oblivion fixed the Combat issues of Morrowind, bringing them back to Daggerfall status (albeit, better by virtue of technology), but the world seemed to have involuntarily inherited some of the dullness, while not having the sheer size of Daggerfall to compensate. Let's not even talk about Level Scaling.

Yet for Skyrim, if we take the developer's word for it. The Combat has become the most kinetic and visceral yet seen. The character development is taking on an entirely new level of depth that [potentially, won't know until we see a perk tree list] surpasses all of the previous games combined. A world that's will attempt to compel with less "OMG WORLD ENDING" and more political intrigue and contrast, and of course, no more Oblivion creature/loot(?) scaling.

So where exactly has Skyrim been dumbed down? At worst, sacrifice two weapon variants, and spellcrafting, which may or may not lend itself to the new magic system anyway? If you want to talk about "Dumbing down" go to the Mass Effect forums and sound off, that's where all the RPGers should be directing their rage.


I'm actually playing Morrowind Right now, and, at first I resisted kind of, negating the attributes, but now I really do see they are kind of pointless.

Strength (Carry Weight, Starting Health, Stamina, Weapon Damage) = Skill, Perks, Level up for additional Health/Stamina. Encumbrance(To Be Determined) Yes, it's pointless.
Endurance (Starting Health, Health per Level, Stamina) = Health Increase per level bonus. Stamina Increase per Level bonus. Yes, this is pointless.
Intelligence (Magicka) = Magicka bonus per level. This is actually improved as no wizards no longer have a hardcap of pre-gear Magicka.
Speed (Movement Speed) = Encumbrance and Burden Based, or To Be Determined.
Willpower (Stamina, Magicka regeneration, Effect resistance) = Stamina bonus per level. Rest: Unkown.
Personality (Disposition) = Speechcraft skill and/or Perks. Useless.
Agility (Accuracy, Evasion, Stamina) = No more Dice Rolls. Stamina Bonus Per level. Useless.
Luck (Useless) = Modified Weapon properties such as Critical Hit rate. Tangible Improvement through Perks.

So as you can see, the only actual arguments stem from Speed and Willpower. Perhaps Strength as well, specifically for encumbrance. But most of the arguments are based on an absence of knowledge, and not any actual basis in what we know about the game.

Agreed. Balance is where perfection is found, and I believe BGS knows that and is trying to find the best balance they can in their games. They've been pretty successful in the past with finding that balance, and I'm sure they'll continue to refine the process as best they can.

Yes - there are things like that that CAN BE more profitable, but they're not guaranteed to be more profitable, or even profitable at all. If every $14,000 sunk into a game resulted in a Farmville, then you might have a point, but the fact is that the VAST majority of such games barely turn a profit, and damned few of them turn a profit anything close to the one that Skyrim unequivocally will.

You mention film a bit later in your post. Surely you're not unaware of the fact that major studios by far prefer safe, solid, big name, relatively conservative films, even if their budgets are enormously greater and thus their profit margins potentially slimmer, and that's precisely because those films WILL be profitable. Yes - some indie feature might well end up with a fatter profit margin, but the odds are much, much greater that it's not going to. Just as this reality is not lost on film studios, it's not lost on software companies.


I sincerely have no idea how to respond to such a flatly ridiculous assertion, beyond sharing the fact that I find unintentional irony to be amusing.

The only thing I was challenging, was the notion that Bethesda is only interested in turning a profit. If that was true, there would be no video games at all. That's an incredible insult to the people who work on these pieces of art, and like I said, if you truly believe that, then I cannot reconcile it through logic, because you obviously ignore it.



Explain how it's ridiculous then. I'm not seeing how a basemant programmer spends 70hours a week writing code to bring home 60,000$ a year is profit-driven. You only devote yourself that much through passion, and are just happy you get paid for it anyway.

So.....making the game for a wider audience isn't trying to get profits? I've seen poster here saying things akin to "Beth isn't making games for a marginal elite, they want profit, thats why 90% of their fans are on consoles, for the money, you don't get money from 10%" etc etc.

I think the "dumbing down" part is the fact that people still talk about games "dumbing down" yet it isn't the saying that's "dumbing down", is it?

Just play the game or don't. I don't see why it needs to be more difficult than that.

Yeah, the "dual wielding appealing to casual crowd" thing is a little overblown, since that has been popular in fantasy since what... 88? When ever Drizzt Du'urden came around?

I hope you're not implying that I said they don't want to turn a profit. I'm only saying it's the secondary objective to the creativity. Now, this is the part where I point out that I can't read minds, and neither can anyone else. So we don't really know squat, that said, I sincerely doubt the original Skyrim Brainstorm within BGS started with "How can we turn another couple mil for the publisher in five years?"


Remember, they have to maintain symbiosis. They have a passion for their work, so they want to maintain it. But the passion came before the dollar, I assure you. As for Reaching a wider audience, isn't that the quintessence of successful art? Being as engaging to the largest number of people, while still maintaining it's own unique identity? Will Skyrim be that? I don't know, but I see no reason to doubt it yet.

yeah. adding more combat mechanics is literally the opposite of dumbing down. People are being nostalgic and scared of change.

Oh come now. That statement doesn't even begin to make sense. Video games are profitable, which is precisely why companies invest enormous piles of money into making them.


How? Did I say that Joe the Graphic Designer - you know, one of "the people who work on these pieces of art" - is only interested in profit? Hell - Joe the Graphic Designer most likely loves graphic design, and that's how he ended up doing it. And yes - he's (hopefully at least) creative and dedicated and loves what he does and does it well. Which is precisely why companies hire department heads and project leads - because creative talents like Joe have a tendency to invest more time into more detail than the budget allows, and the company needs somebody to keep all the Joes on track, because, again, THE COMPANY is only interested in profit.

This really isn't anything novel or surprising. Companies exist to profit - that's the entire point. That the individuals who work for them might have decidedly different values has no bearing at all on that fact, nor does the company's pursuit of profit reflect in any way on the people who work for it.

I can only presume that you have a determinedly negative, and unrealistic, view of business and profit. That's the only explanation I can come up with for the misperception that my simple recognition that companies exist to profit is some sort of "insult" to anybody. I don't consider it to be such - as I noted in my first, I'm a minarchist/capitalist. I recognize and accept and even welcome the pursuit of profit that underlies the capitalist system, and I'm fully able to distinguish between the values of the company and the values of the individuals that comprise it. I can only conclude that you are not able to do that, or, at best, you presume that I'm not.


And like I said, I find unintentional irony amusing. Though it loses its zest a bit when it's repeated.

so many voted for dumbing down...it just proves that we are lacking in info and more details about the game

im sure alot of pc gamers voted dumbing down as well, because we have NO clue if we are getting a port or not

I think it a given that they are searching for perfection, though this is not gaurauntee that they will find it, nor that when they do achieve their version that it will be even remotely perfect for eveyone.

There's a guarantee they won't find it. Perfection is a moving target after all. But frankly, I'm glad I don't have to powertrain my Block skill to get the AGI x5 multiplier. Playing through Morrowind right now, when hits were still based on Die-roll mechanics. It's.. infuriating coming off Oblivion-Fallout3-New Vegas. Something I'm glad to be rid of.(Both accounts)

Completely agreed. Speaking of this, do you happen to know of any mods which completely change the Morrowind combat system into something like Oblivion's ?


I hate missing so much and can't get back into the game

No, I'm not big on gameplay mechanic mods, to be honest. About the only things I partake in are Content addition and Graphical enhancements (Highly recomend Morrowind Overhaul if you haven't got that running already)

I'm sure if you went to the Morrowind mods subforum, and ran a quick search or asked, you'd turn up something.

actually there is a mod that makes combat like Oblivion for Morrowind, I cannot for the fing life of me Find it, but it was a fairly finished mod that included dismemberment, momentum, flurries etc etc, and always hitting your target.

it also has two modes, defence and offence that you switch via Key.

Skyrims going to be the best game ever. they made it so you can duel wield weapons and the graphics are better. they got rid of strength and stuff but they said it's cuz you don't need those anymore. I think it's going to be epic and not dumb at all.

IMO "dumbing down" for most people is "OMG they changed it from [insert previous game in series] so now it's different it's dumbed down!"

Dumbing down to me means something more like the definition of "enemy" in the Mass Effect 2 instruction booklet (Xbox 360 version)

Enemy: An Aggressive opponent who is trying to kill you

Like really? :facepalm:

I'm not saying Mass Effect 2 is dumbed down though (well thinking about it now my original assumption may be incorrect and perhaps they think the users have been dumbed down and that may not be that far off).

Most games aren't that much farther off from previous games. There are times when things seem simpler but essentially not much has changed.

For example GTAIV doesn't have as many features as GTA San Andreas. Is it because the game is dumbed down? Essentially all the classic parts of a GTA game are there minus a lot of the extras in GTA San Andreas. I'm not entirely sure if it is dumded down or even if there is such a thing or if it's just a coined term to describe a new game in the series that you don't like.

Dumbing down to me pretty much means no thought process needed.. walk to A-B kill any enemies without thinking or planning in any part of the game. Pretty much so easy a Cave man can do it.

Using terms like "Dumbing Down" just makes most of the console players here all defensive.

The political correct term is "streamlined."

I have no issues on optimizing the game, by removing things that are truly redundant.

What I have issues with are the removal of things that add depth and then replacing these items with more simplified ones. For instance, the amount of text dialog was greatly reduced in Oblivion, for what was in Morrowind (because the dialog was fully voiced in OB). Now I'm all for voiced dialog, but the problem was that there was often not enough dialog provided for the player to receive adequate directions to complete a quest . . . and then this shortcoming was "corrected" by adding the Quest Arrow, and though multiple popup messages that totally walked you through some of the quests.
In my above example, a better solution would have been to fix the way that the dialog was handled, and do a mixture of voice dialog and text (in the form of journal entries). Then you wouldn't need to rely on any quest arrows, which "Streamlined" the game.