Dumbing down or in search of perfection? : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:41 am

Y'all are complaining about nothing!

As a capitalist I don't see how you can make a simple game (almost all were, even old RPGs.) simpler and attract these so called "stupid" players. It's about interest. And filling a game with scantily clad barbarians and Nordic theology isn't going to make people who hate fantasy all the sudden pick it up.

Attributes were a simple concept (if you can read and relate to words like Strength), and we will see if axing them will make the game more natural like they intended.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:01 pm

no Esse my friend Aidan thought Oblivion was stupid and nerdy but when he saw Skyrim he thought it was epic cuz it looks like Vikings and COnan the Barbarian lol.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:58 am

They are just hanging a left albuquerque instead of a right.

» Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:17 pm

Attributes were a simple concept (if you can read and relate to words like Strength), and we will see if axing them will make the game more natural like they intended.

Speaking of natural... I worked out this week. Buffed the pecs. Saw an increase in my health meter...it was rad.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:18 am

Oblivion was stupid and nerdy, in the finest senses of the words. The quest targets meant that you couldn't lose, so completing the game was just something that people did who had no life. That's both stupid AND nerdy. The developers are incredibly lucky that Morrowind was my first step into more mature games or else I wouldn't spend a cent to play Skyrim. As it is, I'm not going to waste my time if it is as shallow and superficial as Oblivion was. Daggerfall and Morrowind were infinitely better.

My objections from Oblivion are because of how the developers made a world that offered difficulty and complexity simple.

On the other hand, some of the new mechanics look to be interesting and fun. We won't know until how good or bad Skyrim is until comes out, but I'm hoping that Oblivion will be the odd one out in terms of quality.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:37 am

At first, I thought they were just dumbing the game down, but then I played through Oblivion again and got to level 24 and had bandits kicking my ass because I didn't invest that much in Endurance on my stealth character. Most of that was because of level scaling problems in the game, but it also had to do with the game being still just a bit too close to a number-cruncher and dice-roller (not nearly as much as Daggerfall or Morrowind, but there was still some) that you had to write formulas out and do some algebra problems to see what the probability of getting your ass kicked was by the time you got to level 20.

So yeah, at first they seemed to be making this for the ree-rees of RPGers, but in the end, they are De-Germanizing the game by making it simpler to both use and (hopefully) modify.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:47 am

Speaking of natural... I worked out this week. Buffed the pecs. Saw an increase in my health meter...it was rad.

If you were shot, your pecs wouldnt help squat. same goes for being skewered with a blade etc etc etc.

Strenght is not a skill in Skyrim, so you won't be raising that. can't say you leveled up either...because you rose your strenght...in that sense the beginning of this sentence applies once again.

» Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:42 pm

They're definitely trying to focus more on the quality of each skill and item. In the past they have been criticized by game critics for how the individual pieces of the game are bland but theres so much of it it doesn't matter. They're refining what was once considered bland by some to truly polish each individual aspect of the game.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:54 am

If you were shot, your pecs wouldnt help squat. same goes for being skewered with a blade etc etc etc.

Strenght is not a skill in Skyrim, so you won't be raising that. can't say you leveled up either...because you rose your strenght...in that sense the beginning of this sentence applies once again.

A bullet causes 100 points of damage. He just increased his health from 20 to 50.

Working out actually does help you get tough and more resistant to pain.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:39 am

I think they are trying to get the game out to as much of the fanbase as possible.

Do I think its a good idea?
no. underaged gamers will get tehir hands on it anyway, even if its not bought for them.

do I think they are dumbing it down, no
do I think its searching of perfection, no.

will I buy the game anyway, yes.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:30 am

If things turn out half as good as I am expecting I think they are on the right track. Unlike a lot of games today they aren't just dumbing things down without thought or reason, they aren't just ripping mechanics out without giving something equally good or better in return. My anticipation hasn't been this high for a game in a long time.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:40 am

Hope for the best, fear the worst, as they say.

Another classic misquote. It's supposed to be: "Hope for the best and prepare for the worst."

Guarantee dual wielding anything including staves was an appeasal to action/shooter gamers.
I'm not fooled Beth, sorry.
Dual wielding staves :rofl:
It's pathetically obvious. ( GuNz AkImBo Yo!)

Dual wielding has been in the top 10 most wanted features for over a decade. They were just waiting until they could do it right.

Oh come now. That statement doesn't even begin to make sense. Video games are profitable, which is precisely why companies invest enormous piles of money into making them.

How? Did I say that Joe the Graphic Designer - you know, one of "the people who work on these pieces of art" - is only interested in profit? Hell - Joe the Graphic Designer most likely loves graphic design, and that's how he ended up doing it. And yes - he's (hopefully at least) creative and dedicated and loves what he does and does it well. Which is precisely why companies hire department heads and project leads - because creative talents like Joe have a tendency to invest more time into more detail than the budget allows, and the company needs somebody to keep all the Joes on track, because, again, THE COMPANY is only interested in profit.

See that's one of the things that sets Bethesda apart from all the other companies though, all the people in charge are the same people that got into the industry to make great games and they stayed there because it was rewarding. Bethesda has actually built a company (by creating their own parent) that answers to no one outside of BGS. They don't sell stock and they tell their publisher what they are going to do not the other way around. Hell, up until 5 years ago they were their own publisher and though they have split(most likely for legal/financial reasons) they are very much one in the same. The buck stops at Todd Howard, Executive Producer = final say in all matters.

Search around and see if you can find another AAA game director that holds the title of executive producer.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:24 am

I'm sure Todd & Co are intending to improve the game.

The fact that Todd spoke recently about keeping Skyrim a game "for gamers" and not something he would necessarily want to recommend to people new to video games is a good thing. He doesn't sound overly concerned with broadening the market, as I think Bethesda knows at this point that their "formula" yields games which consistently sell 6+ million copies. There are only a small handful for franchises that can boast those kind of numbers, so I doubt they would want to mess it up.

Will those good intentions play out in a positive way? Maybe. I honestly think the outcome will be something of a tradeoff, but I'm hopeful that the steps forward will outnumber the steps back. The team will learn and carry that experience on to the next game, etc.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:15 am

Using terms like "Dumbing Down" just makes most of the console players here all defensive.

The political correct term is "streamlined."

"Dumbing Down" doesn't really have anything to do with the consoles, but rather that gaming gone mainstream (and there are many mainstream PC gamers). You won't see a blockbuster movie or game that cost $50 million to develop to be catered towards a niche audience. And that's where the gaming market is now, it's been very "Hollywoodified" with whatever pros and cons that comes with it.

I agree that "streamlined" is a much better choice of word, though. That word doesn't hold any negative preconceived about the "other kind of gamers that doesn't share my opinion", nor does it insult them every time the discussion comes up.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:26 am

Fun(subjective) =/= complicated and condiluted. There is a lot of excess bloat of stuff(especially in the UI) for most RPGs the past 10 years, simply because something is considered standard.

I love MMOs like WoW personally just because I have so much control over my own interface with mods. Just like Bethesda games.

Im all for streamlining and redesigns because Ive yet to see a case where it was anything other than an attempt(successful or not) to improve the game. Not counting Fable, because that actually underwent a complete genre change.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:12 am

Not counting Fable, because that actually underwent a complete genre change.

Complete genre change?

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:07 am

Complete genre change?

Well ok, it went from Action-RPG to just Action. The removal of RPG elements and making the games easier was an intentional design.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:23 am

Dual wielding staves :rofl:
It's pathetically obvious. ( GuNz AkImBo Yo!)

Here I've "streamlined" my previous post to highlight the main point. I guess streamlining does work!

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:16 pm

Neither, they are making a unique elder scrolls game that cannot be said to be MW 2 or OB 2. And they surely seem to succeed in that, to the great terror of hardcoe MW fans and hardcoe OB fans.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:18 am

Have to wait and see
I agree with Todd that removing the superfluous is good, I just don't always agree about what is superfluous

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:44 pm

"Dumbing Down" doesn't really have anything to do with the consoles, but rather that gaming gone mainstream (and there are many mainstream PC gamers). You won't see a blockbuster movie or game that cost $50 million to develop to be catered towards a niche audience. And that's where the gaming market is now, it's been very "Hollywoodified" with whatever pros and cons that comes with it.
I agree that "streamlined" is a much better choice of word, though. That word doesn't hold any negative preconceived about the "other kind of gamers that doesn't share my opinion", nor does it insult them every time the discussion comes up.

I realize that, and my post was not meant to deride console users. All I was trying to point out is that it is more often the console users who feel that the term is directed at them (often rightfully so).

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:07 am

Neither, Beth is just trying to make a better game.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:20 pm

Let's be honest here - Beth has one and only one goal - profit. That's it. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that - I'm a minarchist/capitalist myself. But for precisely that reason - because I understand and value capitalism - I understand Beth's motives, and Beth's motives are purely, ultimately, profit.

Beth's profits are best served by appealing to as many people as possible. The path to appealing to as many people as possible with a video game is some combination of making it shiny and simple enough to appeal to and not frustrate rage quitters, but complex and challenging enough to impress self-styled serious gamers. So they are, completely understandably, trying to balance those two things.

How much of what is an expression of the former and how much of what is an expression of the latter is only really known inside their offices, and can only be guessed at by the rest of us, particularly without the game in hand. But it's an absolute certainty that both of those things are going on at the same time - to approach it any other way would simply be a bad business decision, and Beth didn't get where they are by making bad business decisions.

All I can really hope is that they manage to achieve a good balance of the two.

So, everything people do in life is ultimately for profit? They have a good dinner and dessert not so much for enjoyment or for filling their tummies, but for staying alive so they can continue working toward profits? They don't play games so much for fun as for profit-making inspiration? They strive to entertain both others and themselves not so much for personal enjoyment or for satisfaction as for profit? Personal cravings and desires be damned -- if they aren't on the road to profit, they aren't worth pursuing? Many entertainers would disagree, as would many entertainers fortunate enough to have found popularity.

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:18 am

skyrim is just a seed that Bethesda has planted, that will be watered by modders

» Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:55 am

So, everything people....

If you're unable to make the distinction between a company and people, and thus between the motives and values of a company and the motives and values of the people who comprise it, I doubt there' s much I can do to help you. If, as is more likely, you are able to make that distinction and simply chose to make believe that they're one and the same pursuant to a (fallacious) argument, there's probably even less I might do, aside from merely pointing it out.

Take heart though - at least you're not the first on this thread to pursue that fallacy.