I don't like Oblivion much either, but I'm hoping that it was just a stepping stone to Skyrim. As in they were working with new technology and all kinds of newer gameplay things, but didn't have enough time to work them in right or go back and fix the problems they caused. Like generic voiced dialogue cutting out unique details for every quest and having to slap on the compass to help fill them back in. All kinds of things went wrong and they admit that at least somewhat.

At least that's my hope. I'm not much of a gamer at all anymore and it takes an awesome game to hold my interest. Hopefully Skyrim will be one.

Boring, but true.

My first thoughts when I saw they were making a story about dragons was;

- Are there really that many kids who play TES?
- Are there really that many geeks who play TES?
- "%#¤!! Dragon Age!

When I calmed down I realized that it doesn't matter.

:)

In the terminology of the anime community, dragons are fan service. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but they really are.


Exactly. That's my view not only on that, but on fan service in general. It makes me sort of apprehensive when I see it, because it often ends up getting shoehorned in and ends up just not fitting, but if it works in the context of the thing being produced, I don't much care. By some purist standard, it might be unfortunate that companies follow that path (if for no other reason than that it can result in things like the Star Wars prequels), but that sort of purity is impractical, not to mention vanishingly uncommon, so all that really matters in the end is whether the company can at least strike a reasonable balance.

Looks as though they are making the best action rpg they can that will sell lots. Can't really see a problem with that. Some guys obviously want a proper hardcoe rpg with deep mechanics and number crunching, but if that won't pay 100 developers wages for 5 years, it's not going to happen.

Some of us gals want this just as much as the guys.

They should really consider releasing a separate limited edition/hardcoe version of the game. I think there is enough interest to warrant this . . . and most of us would be willing to pay more for it.

"Streeamlining" can have several different effects and it really depends on the developer. Take ME2. That game isn't "streamlined" it is flat out "dumbed down". They took excellent features from the first game and rather than improve what needed to be improved those features were completely obliterated. The biggest reason being Capitalism/profit. Just a little nod to our resident capitalist. Don't mistake that as a bash as I am partially one myself. However the glaring flaw of that is shiny garbage that can potentially get shipped out in the name of profit. Bioware has held workshops/forums at past GDC's (just before the ME2 release) with the primary topic of "Effectively Streamling Levels". Yeah the time reduction worked well for them but what was the balance in that? Terrible level design and shooting galleries that cut off the effectiveness of at least 1 character class. Don't get me wrong ME2 is a great game with a great story but they should never have had the nerve to slap an RPG label on it. It's more like a Story based action/3rd person shooter with COD perks implemented.


As for Bethesda I voted neither. Beth/Zen is out to make a buck and a great game. Yeah the streamlining could be considred dumbing down as above but what is the intent? If streamlining old features to not only improve but also add great new features is the intent then go for it. Otherwise you get no improvement and a stale game. That being said here are my concerns:

Perks : said it many times. It will either be a great feature or a complete fiasco. I am partially leaning towards fiasco as they have stated that there are 180 perks plus perk rank-up. This worries me as it sounds like most perks will be the hidden modifier perks. If that is the case then give me attributes back because all you have done is fooled people into thinking it is a great new system when it really is the same old system with a shiny new coat of paint.

Side jobs : .... mmmhmmm. .. farming,cooking,mining...... how much detail is going into this? I don't want a frakkin big single player social network game. Beth better add lots of detail to this one. and add more. Like "Brewing" for my drunken Nord character. and Taxidermy. Screw trophies and achievements. Let me put that dragons head on a wall!

Hope they get it right. Will I play Skyrim? You bet! Will I like Skyrim? Definately! Will I love Skyrim? Only if they put "Named Soul Gems" back into the game :wink_smile:

Intelligently integrated functional simplicity paired with behind the scenes technical complexity is a challenge, but should always be a goal of design. I am not saying this as an insult, but there is SO MUCH that could be improved with the TES games. That is just the nature of good games, they cause people to say "what if" to a host of ideas that the good game spurs. What is you could make friendships with NPC. What if spell casting looked and felt more organic. What if monster AI was more complex to allow for flanking, hunting an stalking behaviors. What is a skeletal enemy articulated like a real skeleton.

The point of the game should be to keep you out of the menus and into the game play as much as possible. The point of the game is that logic would prevail so that fake meaningless complexity is removed and replaced with simplistic system that when running created dynamic emergent game play. A car would not be BETTER to drive if there were eight peddles on the driver’s side floor instead of three or two. The jet pilot does not need to know is his hydraulic pressure for the flaps unless the hydraulic pressure is outside of normal. That is the key to new jet design the pilots see what is important not a 3 screens, 100 lighted indicators buttons, and 2 dozen dials.

They are as much of a fan service as the Khajiit or the elves...
If they would remove those from Skyrim, people (the fans) would complain endlessly.

Technically we could say the whole game is fanservice if they take the fans' opinions in any way...


That's not gonna happen as that would be a completely different game...

I think the merging and simplicity isn't a search for perfection, but an outreach to the "casual" gaming crowd that is making up a large part of the market today. Perfection? I can only imagine the complexities of Daggerfall done right as perfection. Of course, this is all my opinion

It would just be a developer modded version of the game . . . they could even release it as DLC.
It would be no different than than other Limited Editions of other games, that include additions that were not part of the standard version.
It would increase the revenue.
It would make everyone more people happy.
I view this as a win/win.

I support this line of reasoning,

i fear it may go over peoples heads though,
some people see Labeling something hardcoe, as meaning other modes are =easy mode= and they would take it as an attack on their play style (sigh) and would lash out at the developers for including a mode that wasn't specifically made for their play style. (because god knows its always an attack on their play style, and not a dumbing down of ours)

I like your mods, and think there should be a mode like it in the game but getting it as a stock mode in a game is about as likely as Us getting off this planet in the next 50-100 years

On topic for the post, but off for the thread - ME2 is actually, still, a good example of capitalism in action. It's a balancing act - companies try to maximize their profits, often by cutting corners. But if they go too far, that's when the other half of capitalism kicks in - when the consumers pillory them for churning out shiny garbage. Do that one time too many and the company's bankrupt, as it should be.

Well... not that it always works out that way, y'know....


That's but one of my worries concerning that topic, but I really don't want to go there, lest the hounds catch the scent and destroy another thread.


This is beautifully phrased, and spot-on.


I think this is a tremendous idea, however, in spite of the fact that I'm by no means inexplicably hostile to it like our erstwhile colleague Bukee, I'd tend to agree that there's no chance that it will happen. There's certainly a market for such a game, and an increasingly anxious market at that, willing to settle for the graphics of Dwarf Fortress or Nethack simply in order to experience the wonder of a rich and complex game. But I think it's safe to predict that the game that's almost certainly going to come along and fill that market will come from a company that's the equivalent of the Bethesda that made Arena - not the one that's making Skyrim. Sad to say....

They're looking to refine the system, not appease the Call of Duty crowd. There are no guns (staves are too slow to really count) and no multiplayer, so it's not "all about profit" as some have stated.

I haven't read anything that suggests dumbing down, but some players prefer their games to be needlessly complicated, and thus resent Bethesda for removing the largely vestigial attributes system.

"Is this fun?" "Is this interesting?" "How can we make this previously cumbersome system fit more naturally with the game?" These are the questions Bethesda is grappling with for each and every feature in the game. As long as they emphasize fun while providing a good challenge, I'll be happy with the result.

There is something of a flaw in this argument. The point of any machine is to achieve a purpose that is entirely divorced from your interface with the machine - so, the point of a car is to get you from A to B, not to push pedals and turn wheels. In this sense the argument for simplicity is undeniable.

However. the point of games is, above all, to be fun; and for many people, especially RPG players, the complexity is fun - or it can be fun, when done well.

For example, Dragon Age: Origins took an old-school approach to combat. Almost every fight you paused instantly. You studied the way the enemy were deployed, you figured out which spells or special attacks should be used on which enemies in which order. You queued up your orders for your party, and only then did you let the fight get started. You watched what was happening, spotted the errors in your plan, paused the action, thought things through again. You thought very carefully about relying on a powerful spell, because those took a long time to cast. And, if you're the kind of player who likes all this micromanagement, it was fun!

Then along comes Dragon Age 2. This took a streamlined approach to combat. No studying the deployment of the enemies, because they came in several waves. No need to hesitate about using a powerful spell, because they were cast almost instantly. No queueing up of orders. Fights were faster, more reactive, more fluid. But were they better? For some players, yes, absolutely. But for other players, no, far from it.

Streamlining or simplifying a game isn't automatically making it better. It's sometimes making it better. Other times, it's making it different. And sometimes, if a company have misjudged what their loyal customers find fun, simplifying a game makes it much worse.

Nice over generalisation. Way to twist it :thumbsup:

Okay, you just implied that Arena was "rich and complex"...

:rofl:
I'm sorry, I just can't stop laughing now...

Agreed. Many players (myself included) find the most fun aspect of RPGs to be precisely the arcane complexities of character development. If I want simple, I will play Duke Nukem Forever (which I will actually get). If I want complexity, I will play an RPG.

Kinda hard to dumb down something that really didn't use much brain power anyways. Just another excuse to use the repeated-ad-nauseam term "dumbing down".


The Elder Scrolls series more relates to Duke Nukem than the complexity of an RPG you ascribe to. You get in the game, you find out what you want to level, you hack/blow things up. Surely there are games that have menus-within-menus (whether it be items, spells, battle) that allow for the sort of complexity you describe, but that's certainly not this series' games.

I'm wondering why there's a large group that either didn't play this series and is worried about things that are highly common throughout Action RPG games, or those who want to treat Skyrim like it's predecessors were of another genre of game.

Exactly, players are fabricating a level of depth that never existed in the game to begin with. It was simple and practical, that's why I love it. I mean, it's certainly more deep that many first-person shooters, but it's certainly no D&D. The Depth of the Elder Scrolls reached it's apex with Morrowind, and the depth there only comes from the world itself, not character development.

Also, someone mentioned Dragons as Fanservice. Well, Bethesda Game Studios makes it no secret that they themselves are fans of their own game. And Dragons were always something they wanted to do. It's definitely fan service, but it's not fan pandering like say... Super Smash Brothers.





One of the best things I've seen on the forums. Only Obsidian and Bethesda Game Studios are the studios that have gotten the close. Hell, bugs aside, New Vegas accomplishes it admirably. The Technical Complexity of that game is only mirrored by how simple it is to just pick it up and shoot a gecko. I hope pride doesn't get in the way of progress, and Bethesda took some notes on things like weapon variance, impact on armor and.. um... How not to release a game in a still broken state.

My first TES game (and first RPG) was Morrowind. Little did I know that this was to be the pinnacle of TES games . . . as far as depth and challenge as concerned.

I'll admit that my expectations were too high when Oblivion was being developed, but this was mostly from the way Bethesda over-hyped the game . . . along with my own naiveté that a latter game in a series should be better than an earlier version. I'm VERY right-brained (due to a severe head injury), so I do love the way that the graphics have improved so much . . . but it would be nice to see more effort put into improving the RPG aspects of these games, rather than mainstream them.

There is no hiding it, they are dumbing it down. Long gone are the games with complex systems to learn and play with, now everything is laid out right in front of you with fewer choices. Imo of course.

While that's true for games in general, I'm still confused as to where people are getting this "Illusion of depth" from earlier Elder Scrolls games. At least if we're talking Character development options. Please, enlighten me and support the opinion, because without support, it just seems like ignorant doomsayer/contrarian speak.

I agree with this. :wink_smile:

I'd really like to have an example of these "rich and complex systems" of the past, because I don't remember most of them...

And I'm confused about all these people who carry on about lack of choice when they don't even know yet how things are actually going to work.