“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”
– Antoine de Saint-Exupery

An interesting quote from a poet and writer, which is often quoted in engineering disciplines.

Do you think they are dumbing down or just finely tuning a changing system to try to reach perfection?

I for one am quite interested to see the direction they are going with removing attributes particularly; it is quite a bold step, in my opinion, for an RPG to go down this route.

They're definitely trying to refine the system into a more coherent set of simple, emergent rules. Now whether it'll be accomplished is another question. I think they will.

i believe that if they do this right with the mixture of perks and skills they could possibly make a really good game.

My best guess is they are working toward improvement.

Myself it is only dumbing down if it fails, success will make it perfection... or as close to it as they can get.

I don't mind a "dumbed down" system as technically my favourite CRPG Torment had a bare bones no frills system based on a gutted AD&D system.
However lots of people like lots of frills, which actually can make a great game like Arcanum.
However as long as consistancy, quality and options to explore in various ways are offered a dumbed down style works.

It's when they dumb down and offer nothing in return, or not to quality that ruins the goals of doing so.

Merging skills into one another and reducing the amount of weapons in exchange for a more balanced, enthralling combat system? Perfection.

Using clunky horizontal scrolling and painterly constellation pop-ups in seeking to solve the age-old question "what would an RPG by Apple look like?" Todd on LSD.

I definitely share the sentiment of Saint-Ex, however. Throughout Oblivion though, I felt that while some things were removed in the name of perfection, lots of things were completely unjustified. Like the silly persuasion wheel minigame. Thankfully, every design decision made in Skyrim thus far seems to be well-informed and with good intentions.

Where's the option for both?

I voted searching for perfection. I would highly doubt that Bethesda would just want to dumb down the game. Though I am sure they are being influenced, for good or bad, by the market/platform where they will make money. But, I believe they are striving for a better gameplay experience and a better game overall. We will see if their moves are in the right or wrong direction.

They are searching for the perfect product, not the perfect game, because they are sustained by profit. That means these two disparate goals - for a perfect game, and a perfect product, become merged, and thus, both are inevitably compromised. We end up with something that sells amazingly, because it is specifically designed to do so. Unfortunately this is often at the expense of what would have made it a better game.

gonna go with neither because I am sure they will take somethings away from Oblivion which pretty much renders the definition of perfection obsolete. (if we are going by the above quote) and I do not believe they are dumbing out rather then actually making it more complex this time around while still retaining accessibility.

Let's be honest here - Beth has one and only one goal - profit. That's it. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that - I'm a minarchist/capitalist myself. But for precisely that reason - because I understand and value capitalism - I understand Beth's motives, and Beth's motives are purely, ultimately, profit.

Beth's profits are best served by appealing to as many people as possible. The path to appealing to as many people as possible with a video game is some combination of making it shiny and simple enough to appeal to and not frustrate rage quitters, but complex and challenging enough to impress self-styled serious gamers. So they are, completely understandably, trying to balance those two things.

How much of what is an expression of the former and how much of what is an expression of the latter is only really known inside their offices, and can only be guessed at by the rest of us, particularly without the game in hand. But it's an absolute certainty that both of those things are going on at the same time - to approach it any other way would simply be a bad business decision, and Beth didn't get where they are by making bad business decisions.

All I can really hope is that they manage to achieve a good balance of the two.

Perfection doesn't exist, to strive for this is to incure failiure. when everyone tries to reach perfection there is stagnance in creativity as everyone uses what they "think" is the right direction.


To design a game of your own accord independent of trying to appease a particular crowd, or trying to "draw in a greater audience" is something unique and varied this is what TES was up until Oblivion, maybe it was the setting but TES's Lore is exceptionally different from other games.


what ever the outcome, the assumptions of Dumbing down or Seeking perfection are both flawed views.

Yes, a very intelligent quote, but I don't think it applies to computer games and / or their development. I think in general it is not so much a question of what could be added or "dumbed down", but more a question of what will play out as fun or what will be able to immerse the player more into the game world (of a story-based game that is).
That said, I think everything Beth is changing, equalizing or diminishing can turn out as tending more or also less to perfection - we will only know for sure, after having played it for our selves.
But I'm also very confident that Beth will do their best, to take another step in the direction of perfection - in the above definition - with our beloved Skyrim.

Well they do both add and remove features and will be better if number and weight of added features will be significantly larger then number and weight of axed features, at last equal.

But I must say devs sometimes do really strange decisions thats by their idea must improve game but such decision ruin more then add, as well there another thing they don't like to fix something what was flawed in previous game by improving, they more likely will axe problem instead of fixing it in more hard but interesting way
similar to Gordian Knot they cut it and receive result but they can unbind it and receive result and rope as profit but decide to use Alexandrian solution instead.

If they really manage to fix something they do it at next stage in good way (alchemy, sneak, trainers) or almost completely dumb down feature and don't fix problem at all (enchanting, leveling) and generate more ones, all of this is experimentation and they definitely tend to perfection just their methods sometimes is doubtful, there is many ways to find solution what is not used.
They are developers so they have certain limits like time but they have large possibilities and full access to engine, modders don't have such access our possibilities is limited until we not find solution, but we dont have time limits like devs have and can experiment more time on one feature then devs on half of game.

Thats great thats devs take some solutions and inspiration from some mods thats really like from gamers by gamers, thats will be even more if devs take more from our modding experiments since many of problems was fixed by mods in more elegant way because of longer work on solution, just not all know about such solution.

they could strive for perfection for all eternity and they'd never find it, they're just trying to find a system that is simple enough on the surface so that it appeals to as broad a range of people possible, whilst also having depth if you push it to please the more "hardcoe" rpg fans. Obviouslu all of these are just tributaries which flow into the big old river profit, thats what i make of it anyway :shrug:

Youre quote is specifically about literature, not gaming, mon petit prince. (Little Saint-Exupery in-joke there.)
Its one of the great misquotes. Like 'mens sana in corpore sano', wich of course should be 'orandum est ut sit mens sana in corpore sano.'
Sorry for being silly, but its late.

Anyway, I dont believe in 'trimming the fat.'
As anyone whos ever cooked knows, the fat is where the taste comes from.
I have faith in Bethesda to deliver a fantastic game with Skyrim, but I remain sceptical.
Hope for the best, fear the worst, as they say.

This^

gpstr is right, they are going for both goals. Fortunately for us, Bethesda happens to have the uncanny habit of succeeding in both those aspects, if past games are something to judge by. I would say they are "perfecting" the balance between a game that sells copies and reviews well, and a game that locks in new fans and makes the old fans bow before them for supplying a new drug to starving addicts.

I'd image they are trying to simplify it so it appeals to a larger target audience. Unfortunately in doing that they sort of hamper people like me who like to plan out characters. Would be nice if they'd just include functionality for both... make it so you can "play as you go" if you want to, but also include optional stuff for people who like to carefully create their character at the beginning.

Well of course they are looking for perfection. I honestly dont think they are simply "dumbing" down in search of a larger audience, seeing how oblivion was praised over 2 consoles and PC, along with Fallout 3. There is no reason to dumb down those games, they were incredibly popular and well sold. I honestly think they are trying a new system that they think will work, every so often game makers have to change things up, or run the risk of being stale

Guarantee dual wielding anything including staves was an appeasal to action/shooter gamers.
I'm not fooled Beth, sorry.
Dual wielding staves :rofl:
It's pathetically obvious. ( GuNz AkImBo Yo!)

Sometimes in order to get closer to perfection you have to make adjustments. I would call them adjustments rather than dumbing it down. I personally see it as a way to further the immersion and spend less times in menus and not as dumbing it down.

Are dumbing down and the search for perfection mutually exclusive? For many people I suspect they are not.

From what we have seen so far there seems to be a lot of emphasis on "cool" features like Dragon Shouts, Perks and Finishing Moves and little that will add depth to the game. But that's just the nature of marketing. While the mechanics of the game may be simplified i'm still hoping that the storyline and complexity of interactions with the world will be more like Morrowind than Oblivion.

It's pointless to say they are dumbing things down until we've had a chance to actually play the game. Simplifying a game mechanism here and there doesn't necessarily translate to a poorly written, less challenging RPG. The proof will be in the playing.

sarcasm? most RPG's have DW, especially the "l337 oldschool" ones.

This was the opposite of dumbing down, rather adding a whole new layer.

Really, this "dumping down" nearly always sound like a vague excuse to me.
There's something new that you don't like? Obviously they did that to cater to the FPS crowd! Those ruffians ruin everything!

Seriously I haven't seen any changes that haven't been called "dumping down" at some point.