Streamlining. Dropping excess is a good thing.

And thats the problem, Beth trying to appeal to newbs and an unreceptive audience by taking away depth.

I still dont see how Luck and Personality will be handled and no, Personality is not speech-craft, nor is luck useless/pointless.

Diets are streamlining. The obese just have more for us to love, why all the hate for the fatties? Don't dumb them down!

Nice anology, I agree. I want the fatties, not some bulimic, linear game.

There was nothing to prevent you from maxing out all your skills in Oblivion, Morrowind, or Daggerfall either. In fact, the difficulty in maxing all skill decreases with your desire to do so, because as skills are neglected, they take longer to train.

A level 1 character in Daggerfall had 3 skills ~30 pts that leveled very quickly, 3 skills at ~25 points that leveled quickly, 6 skills at ~15 points with moderate leveling speed, and 24 skills at <5 points that leveled slowly

A level 1 character in Morrowind had 5 skills at 25+Racial and Specialization Modifiers and leveled quickly, 5 skills that started at 15+Racial and Specialization modifiers with moderate leveling speed, and 17 skills at 5+Racial and Specialization Modifiers that leveled slowly

A level 1 character in Oblivion had 7 skills at 25+ Racial Modifiers that leveled quickly, and 14 skills at level 5+ Racial Modifiers that leveled slowly.

A level 1 character in Skyrim sounds like it will have 18 skills at 5+Racial Modifiers, that will increase with level at a dynamic rate... The high level faster, the low level slower.

So, if you focus on just 3 skills in Skyrim, you'd end up with them leveling as fast as Core skills would in Daggerfall, while the rest would level as slowly as Daggerfall's misc skills. Or something like that. Characters aren't created with weaknesses, but they aren't created with strengths either. However, as you level up, you will develop different strengths and weaknesses.

And, to the guy a few posts above me... today, luck is Obsolete as a stat. It used to weight the RNG for or against you in Daggerfall (Improving your odds of finding that +5 Item of Ass-kicking, and the odds of coming across an Ancient Lich at level 1.), but in Oblivion, it just became a generic "+X to everything".,

Exactly, how these lost attributes will be implemented (if at all)
Again perks?

And regarding advantages and disadvantages you can choose yourself (like in TES2) I don't see a single reason why those can't be in TES5
I will use on argument I hate, but I often hear when talking regarding fast travel
"Don't like it, don't use it"
Nobody forced you to pick those in Daggerfall. If you are new player, or if you are unsure- don't pick those, don't even watch that way.
Personally I loved this feature in TES2 (and even when created charcter for first time I used it, and for some reasons, I didn't ruined my character)
Each player can have his/her own reasons behind advantages/disadvantages (or none at all)- I know, I did.
So why can't it be as replacement for a background in TES5, since birthsigns are removed?

Yes

No, perks are not cure alls, nor could there be "luck" perks, or "personality" perks, since there's no skill for them to be in, therefore no perk tree.

No there won't be luck perks.

But why can't be there personality perks?
Speechraft skill doesn't do the same thing, fine, but why can't speechcraft perks? A perk that raises everybody's disposition by some amount.

Because personality has nothing to do with speechcraft. And not having luck dumbs down the game. Im just seeing more reason to have attributes, specifically static attributes chosen at the beginning of character creation. but of course that would require a choice with an actual consequence.

WRONG. Your saying the devs are chasing the new players. They arnt. They already HAVE THEM. What they are doing is trying to craft a game where when the new players write up guides.

They like what they see in those guides.

The new players will play skyrim no matter what changes or doesnt change. This isnt about them its about the devs and what they want people to see in this game.

Wrong, Todd already said that birthsigns were removed because of newbs, so I can just imagine what else we'll lose becasue of them. They are trying to appeal to people that accidentally pick up this game thinking its COD: Viking Warfare. Or the people that picked up Morrow/OB and didnt like it for what it was. Whether they are here now, or not doesnt matter, the fact is they are doing things to appeal to them.

Some people have no clue what streamlining is...

Streamlining is the removal of superfluous internal steps to achieve an end-goal. Windows is a streamlined version of DOS.

The angle Todd has consistently said held to with Skyrim is Emergent Character Development. Not Character Creation. And, it will work. You will still end up with hulking Nordic Viking Warriors who are tough as nails and incompetant with spells, and Squishy, clumsy Wizards, and fragile, agile thieves. The difference is they all start from the same spot. The character's progression is chosen by his decisions, not by "birth".

Consequences? WTH are you talking about?
I recently started new character in TES4. During creation I really f**ked him up choosing wrong skills and attributes and totally useless birthsign (at least for my gamestyle)
Dificulty slider was at 80% at the begining, now it is 100%.
How it effected my game? Slightly more quickloading forced by death and thats about it.
TES4 was already extremely forgiving for braindead newbs
(Why braindead? I never screwed up my charcter, not in NWN (1st RPG I played- at 13 years), not in TES3(2nd-14y), not in BG2(3rd-16y), not in TES2 (4th-17y), at least not on purpose )
Really, how it is even possible? Close your eyes and smash buttons on random?
Can someone please explain to me this? I really wan't to understand.

That's what Todd said, they dont want newbs picking things that would ruin their build in the beginning of the game. That is, according to him a choice with a consequence. they want less "choices with consequences" at the beginning of the game. That's what the hell Todds talking about.

What Im talking about is static attributes chosen at the beginning of the game would be a choice with a consequence, like the Fallout system.

Since when has TES been about Consequences? That's what confuses me...

It's never been about Choices and Consequences... it's been "Do what you want too. This is your sandbox. Have fun." since Arena.

Yeah that's why speechcraft's governing attribute was personality. And it's not like they both nearly did the same thing...
And I'm still saying Luck has barely any uses, you can barely add any uses to it, other than a general minor bonus to everything or a cheat at gambling...
Hardly dumbing down, when you can't even notice it's missing...

And you want choices and consequences?
Again, Perks.
You can't pick all of them, you have to decide which to pick, and which to leave, only not at the beginning.

We're not talking about pointless left/right Mass Effect type choices, I mean choices on who you are in character creation.


Speechcraft governed personality, not the other way around. Having personality perks in speechcraft makes no sense. You can be a mute, or speak a different language and still be personable. You can be very unperson-able but still have the gift of gab, one is an attribute, one is a skill. And Luck did more than that, plus it could do way more, like its effects in NV.

DBL post dammit

Than why they are removing optional choices, like traits from FO or advantages/disadvantages from TES2
Developers can also add warning with BIG READ LETTERS that inexperience characters shouldn't go this way
It seems that developers don't quite realise that Skyrim will be played also by TES veterans and rookies, not only by green newbs

And this begs the question "If my guy who started as a Warrior is now more competant with spells than a sword, why is he still called a warrior?"

I have to admit, I do have a major criticism of the system: Annoyingly long starts for each playthrough. I'd rather start at level 5 than level 1.

And the Luck stat is either worthless or God-stat in its implementation.

Luck useless?

Radiant story+ Luck= powerfull combination


Also regarding starting level, why only 5th level?
I want already start at level 75 with full daedric armor, two longswords and facing last quest.
No, even better lets make it into interactive movie, so that we could eat snacks and watch TES5 story at the same time.

Because you started doing things out of your predetermined skill range. Someone who plays like that isn't RPing, they are playing like an action game, doing whatever is practical opposed to who their build is supposed to be. And no, luck is neither useless, or a god stat.

Well I hope you enjoy that freedom as its become even more the case in Skyrim, there are no defined roles you can jump from bed to bed with whatever you want with little consequence :shrug:


As stated earlier and was addressed by AQ with some counter point


Dumbing Down, and Simplifying means the same damn thing, people just for some reason get an itch or offended if either term is used, I notice people that don't like things be cut or "folded" don't like the word streamline and says its dumbing down, and then people who like the changes get up in arms about the term dumbing down and call the opposing groups scared of change or whatever


Dumbing Down and Simplifying equates to one thing.

I don't have to think :shrug:

but at the same time because attributes for instance, have been "streamlined" so people can just pick 3 options per level up, if I am that kind of person that roleplays, I have to Think MORE and literally pretend to an even greater degree about my characters strenghts, weaknesses etc etc because they aren't relayed in game where I can affect them. and me thinking my guy is Conan doesnt translate into the game because Conan was not defined by Skills :bonk: but I suspect someone will say his name is conan and if he's a nord, he's conan...:teehee: completely ignoring what Im saying. instead of having stats that define my character in the game world as strong agile and quick witted which translates into what skills he's going for now I have to say, Ah my Skill is 45 in blade, that must mean Im strong....:teehee:

my character as it stands with current information, has now become 3 stat bars and an avatar that aside from looks is the same as everyone elses at the beginning of the game, and all factors that could have made them vary internally have been removed, Birthsigns, Attributes, and Classes everyone in the game, at this point every NPC creatures and baddie consists of 3 stat bars and some skill variation.

In a GAME the "I think there for I am" does not produce tangible results that can be flexed in the Game world, and thats essentially what I've been trying to relay.

Complexity doesn't always = good/bad and neither does Simplicity but where Oblivion being the latest in simplification and Skyrim -continuing- that trend one can only :facepalm: barring what features are being added, they do not fill the gaps of what is being taken out they are additional puzzle peices to the grand masterpiece but what sense does it make removing as you add?

Radiant Story+ Luck = Powerful Combination. Possibly too powerful. And the luck stat is a contradiction anyway, because it's trying to bring order to randomness.

Because that's the approximate power level that i think level one Morrowind and Oblivion characters would be in comparision to level 1 Skyrim charaters, as far as character definition.



But, in real life, people's skill ranges aren't predetermined. They also generally do what is practical as opposed to "What their build is supposed to be". It's called class mobility. Where you start isn't always where you end. Our characters aren't born into a caste system, where they are the same from beginning to end.

Or, did my dad "Break Character" three times between being an Air Force Recruit, to a Surgeon, and now Chief Information Security Officer of a local community college, beekeeper, and farmer (And a pretty good marksman on top of that)?