They haven't, basically they've just confirmed Birthstones/Doomstones, which were in OB. Birthstones are no more a birth-signs than they were in OB.


When? I never heard anybody complain about birthsigns, attributes (other than being able to max them all) or spell creation before Todd spoke on Skyrim. Most of these problems revolved around wonky leveling systems for enemies/NPCs/items etc. namely OB level scaling.

I did it again. :facepalm:

Only they are not birthsigns because you do not get one from birth that does not change (well not technically from birth but you choose what you were born under). You get possibly interchangeable/stackable powers from rocks that you choose at your whim which is everything a birthsign isn't. I have no problem with it I'll simply have nothing to do with them simple as that, but they are not birthsigns.

You're complaining about a system change again, the effects are still there. :shocking: You guys are simply scared of change, thats all.

Thats not dumbing down. If these stones were 120sec long and overall complete garbage like Oblivion, then you'd be right.

It wasnt changed or improved as far as we know

Birthsigns were removed, Doomstones returned, will they effect the character exactly like Oblivion? unlikely, are they like Oblivion? in that they are stones in certain areas that give powers? yes are they birthsigns? no

Birth stones were in Oblivion...and Hellride, for example, wasn't useless, or garbage.

Why are you saying I am complaining I never complained about anything. I know the effects are still there I'm not [censored] stupid but they are not birthsigns which is the one and only point I'm making and you don't seem to understand that you just keep going on about dumbing down and [censored] sheesh.
Again I never said dumbing down anywhere. What exactly are you reading before you reply to me because they make no sense in response to what I'm saying.

I'll try to spell it out real simple for you k?
A birthsign is a constellation you are born under that grants powers.
They are not picked from a rock or changable as they are now. They might be related in name or whatever to birthsigns but they are not bithsigns.
I'm not complaining about it at all.
Simple enough or do I have to try again?

I complained about birthsigns in mw and ob nice big topics were blathered on it for months with each of those games.

Same with atributes.. and spell creation. I remember the long tirades people had on that one and game balance and how maybe certain spells shouldnt have a spell maker for them or should be limited to at least x seconds duration or blah blah blah blah.

What I hated about atributes was going from daggerfall to mw how you then needed certain skills to get inventory space and how only ertain spells would garner more magicka... and to be vlunt I wanted to scream at illusion being under personality.... ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

People complaned about EVERYTHING.

But it wasnt realy that that caused the changes. It was off in other forums where no one thought a dev was around and where several newbs were just talking without any thought as to effecting change or talking to the devs.. or any care to do so either.


You see devs are creative people and as such they get .... moody when what they expected people to see in ob or mw wasnt what they got.

All of these arguments revolve around refining a system, not becasue Spell Creation was too "spreadsheety", or Attributes were redundant middlemen, or that Initial character creation was too complex. All of the former were used as PR talk points for Skyrim.



But here's what I want to see. I want Heaven stones and Rune stones back, since I made an excellent jack of no trades astrologist that used these exclusively for her arsenal. Similar to how my Daedric Archaeologist would use Daedric Artifacts. No natural abilities other than high intelligence and maybe some luck.

All of you guys who are syaing its "dumbed down" and all of the guys who are saying "optimizing and refining" we really do not know until we play the game or see it in action. I'm staying neutral in this. I'm going to wait and see because as one guy said there is a lot of stuff that we do not know. The stuff we do know is still from second hand accounts; also its only very little of the actual game. I'm really excited for Skyrim I think it is going to be amazing, there are still some things I'm iffy about like the direction Beth is taking on the birthsigns; but out of that I'm going to sit back, wait, and see.

be happy your stance can completely deflect any notion of being chased down and ridiculed <3 by utterly mentally challanged statements meant not to have you see reason but to make you look like an idiot

relish in it.

This game seems like it will be a crazy action RPG. Traversing in the terrain and battles, you will be happy with the streamlining.

When ever Bethesda removes items and complexity, it always bugs me. But the game master stat tracker should be simple and fun. The unique abundant items should not be touched in my opinion. Don't remove the odd mans fork or the drewer buckets. Don't remove the 10 kinds of napkins... I like that diversity and abundance!

It wasnt exactly hard to understand that if they overhauled the magic system it might not include the same kind of spell makiing as before... we knew that back 10 years ago.

It also isnt exactly amazing to note that iussues with inventory limits grind... magicka and health might result in a sizable change to how the characters were constructed.

We complained.. we also made tons of popular mods... and I think they chose to do something different.. and along the lines of what players were modding in.

If adding dual wielding, occupations, local economies, epic battles with dragons that are unscripted, weapon crafting and armor smithing, new spell types other than Target, Touch, and Self, children, better radiant AI, radiant story for more immersive and character unique questing, better character customization, pauldrons, and last but not least dragon shouts is this so called "dumbing down" of the game, then what in the Sam Hill do you people think "complexity" is?

If you think immersion and "complexity" is simply quantity over quality, then you are mistaken. Bethesda is only improving the game. Bethesda is a company. Companies like to make money so they can make more stuff for us. Therefore, of course they are going to change certain aspects to appeal to Average Joe and not solely to Sheldon The Basemant Dweller. Is it wrong? No. I love the idea that more people will be playing a series I dearly love. Is there monetary reasons involved with the changes as well? Of course. Like I said, companies like and need to make money to function. Why not make a few harmless and even welcome nips and tucks to appeal to a larger audience of potential consumers?

Furthermore, the notion that Bethesda is "dumbing down" Skyrim is insulting. They are not streamlining it, or simplifying it. How can you say that when they have added so much? Blasphemer, I say! :verymad:

With a new system in place, certain game mechanics of past TES games become pointless and redundant. If you want to play Morrowind/Oblivion, then go play them. Don't tell Bethesda that they're doing wrong by replacing old aspects of the series when all you clearly want is a re-hash of the same stuff they've done before. Those same people will then complain that the game is a re-hash. Go figure. :twirl:

Oh and [/rant]

Maric you roxorz

Sorry, to derail a bit, but are you the one who made the realism mod?

......

...Thanks...?
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The people who claim that Skyrim is a dumbed down TES game have yet to cite any specifics as to why they think so. All I've heard is "they're removing layers of complexity every time they remove something". Lol, if by complexity you mean complication, then yes.

The heck if we haven't. Although Id say 'has the possibility' of being dumbed down. We obviously wont know until we get more information or the actual game.

OK, lets focus on attributes. Given that their only impact was mostly on the underlying skills, I would argue that they added no real complexity and were largely meaningless stats.

The fact that Bethesda could have improved them and added complexity is irrelevant, as we are discussing whether or not the series has been dumbed down.

Luck and personality cannot be replaced through perks, nor is it a skill. Strength effecting stamina and weapon damage is another aspect that adds depth and is no way a redundant mechanic. Neither is speed or agility for that matter. That's just attributes, dont get me started on spell creation.

^^I think personality can easily be handled in the speechcraft skill and that makes perfect sense, and luck well that was just a stupid attribute to start with imo, how you can get luckier or improve your luck I never understood.

But what did luck actually do? It essentially boosted all skill stats, and it would be relatively straightforward to be offered a perk that generated this exact effect.

Personality. While it affected a number of skills in a basic way, it was also largely replicated by Speechcraft. Again, I dont see what this added.

One of the few skills I can think of that had an impact other than simply boosting skills was Strength. The weapon damage and improvements to Stamina actually are redundant, being dealt with directly through Stamina and the weapon skills now. What isnt being dealt with is encumbrance? Had Bethesda wanted to make attributes worthwhile, they would have needed to offer a lot more of these attribute impacts that arent also dealt with through skills.

Luck effected every choice of chance other than loot in OB, but did more in Morrow and Dagger. I personally want it to effect things like NV, they did it right. And about personality/speechcraft, see below.


But speechcraft and personality can be mutually exclusive. The personable could be mute or speak a different language, while the build gifted in gab may not be personable at all. And luck was definitely not "stupid". You could build multiple classes of characters around it alone. Not to mention what they could make it do. More reason to have rather static attributes chosen at the beginning of the game similar to Fallout. Keep the depth, lose the "frustration".

They can be, but in reality, they never were.

I agree that Bethesda could have improved things by differentiating them, but thats not the point. The truth is that Attributes were largely redundant, and either needed to be changed or dropped. Since electing to drop them leaves us with no less depth than before, it is not dumbing down.

But they were. You can be dumb and barely be able to hold a conversation, but still be personable. Again, there was nothing redundant about having a defined character through attributes, especially since attributes, skills and perks are exclusive entities.