Some aspects of the game are becoming more complex and others are being condensed. I prefer not to think of it as "dumbing down" or "cutting out features for no good reason".

You seem to be taking it a bit personally but are you seriously saying oblivion was harder than morrowind, are you saying Oblivion had more overall than morrowind if not what term would you prefer?

Streamlined is just a nicer word used by developers to say dumbed down.

Dumbed-down is just a misleading term used by disgruntled fans to say "I don't like it".

Not true I would say that about Oblivion and I loved it

I said "it", not "the game". "It" can refer to anything... including specific parts of the game in this case. That is still what you are saying. There is nothing less intelligent about Oblivion (hence the misleading part of "dumbed-down"), there are just parts/features of it you seem to dislike (hence the "I don't like it").

I think Oblivion as a whole could have been better but I don't blame the developers for it. They only had access to the hardware that it would be played on late in development so they did the best they could with what they had in most parts, given more time it would have been hugely improved though I like to think. Skyrim I think will however make up for it more than enough.

I am not trying to bash Oblivion or Bethesda as I love them both, just trying to be honest with what I think

careful people will accuse you of complaining for no reason, and that your not a true fan

If you're referring to me, then you're wrong. If you're referring to others, I'm possibly in agreement.

To the OP, there is no evidence of Oblivion being "dumbed-down". Whatever you may think of it, it is not less intelligent nor is it lacking in comparison to Morrowind on any objective scale. It was merely different and you clearly do not approve of some of the differences.

Your right I don't approve of everything and no one is ever going to approve of everything in any game, however seeing as how we seem to be in disagreement, I think we should agree to disagree as neither of us is going to get anywhere here. Sorry for any confusion

My only point was to bring up the misleading usage of "dumbed-down" (It gets thrown around quite a bit and put into contexts in which it doesn't belong.). I'm not commenting on anything specific.

i have complete faith in bethesda that this will be the best game they have made thus far. I completely agree with every change.. i also like how they are making the game more original and not repetitive for instance the 120 handcrafted dungeons..or is it 180.. regardless that is awesome i don't know but in OB there was literaly 15 dungeons copied and pasted everywhere also i love the perk system and i hate when people say they got rid of mysticism... they just got rid of the word mysticism... all of the spells are still there and they added enchanting which is better. there is also more armor in this game and you can also smith stuff which was never an option.. this game will be epic

... speechless

Even if it were fable in disguise and what's this..... breaking news todd howard replaced by Peter Molyneux.... I would kill myself

Honestly, I never thought it was purely consoles that held back Oblivion from being better than what it was. I felt it was the setting which, for all I know, could have been chosen for the fact that it was simplified but I think more that it was the huge jump into the next-gen before the next-gen existed. It was make or break for BGS and they needed to make something big. Oblivion, I feel, was supposed to be the last TES game if things turned out badly for them regarding it. There was a lot to get done, and they new things had to be scaled down for a more contemporary fantasy.

So, where does this leave Skyrim? I feel that they are not at all doing these changes for consoles' sake. I think it's been proven, mostly in isolated cases, that console users will gladly play a complex RPG so long as it can be put down and picked back up with no difficulty. What I think BGS is trying to do is that they're trying to make gigantic leaps into the future of RPGs by simplifying the stats. When we reach the stage of the graphical peak, complete connectability, and the full understanding of game design there will be thing about games that need to change. Mainly, they will need to be based completely on immersion.

Though we old school RPG players shall never expect or accept it, the numbers will have to go. Eventually there will be a point where it won't even say that your skill has gone up because that would break the experience otherwise. When we get to this point you will feel achievement instead of being told to feel it. However, we are not at this point yet. It's sort of like the Wii trying to give us motion control to the home years before it was ready at all, and let's not even mention the Power Glove (Hint: It's Bad). Still, I support this idea of simplifying to make us feel more with less. It will be odd, definitely, but it's trying bold new steps.

Except that "dumbing down" is perjorative
RPGs don't require a great deal of intelligence, having run many games with a wide variety of players I'm sure of that. They do require imagination
What some RPGs did was have overly complex mechanics that were offputting to the newcomer
Game mechanics don't make a good RPG, Morrowind has mediocre mechanics but is a great game. Its story, background, atmosphere and choices that make a good RPG. Hard to say how Skyrim will score on those but IMO its looking better than Oblivion atm

The way I see it, streamlining makes the game easier to grasp, dumbing down makes the game easier to complete. Which is occuring with Skyrim? Too soon to tell. Personally I don't like the sound of some of the changes they are making, quite a lot of them actually, but I think it's too soon to render judgement on how they'll affect the game.

My take for what happened with Oblivion was that Bethesda wanted the game to appeal to a broader base, and they went a bit too far . . . most noticeably on the handholding end. (Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2 did pretty much the same thing.)


My biggest complaint about where Skyrim seems to be heading, is the removal of the ability to create a truly unique character in the beginning of the game . . . with inherent strengths and weaknesses (by removing Birthsigns, Classes, and most of the Attributes); and replacing this with Faster Leveling and Perks that increase your skills.

And I think this could turn out to be another major mistake (worse than Oblivion's Level Scaling).

Some gamers might enjoy the sort of instant gratification that comes with leveling up every 15 minutes, and maxing out their skills . . . but my instincts are that this will rub the long time TES fans the wrong way.

I'm hoping that mods will be able to fix this, as I fear that this method is going to ruin my own game because it is so totally opposite of what I want in a RPG.

Yes, exactly! I always loved Morrowind not because of RPG rules which were bad but thanks to the world, the NPCs and the quests. Oblivion did improve somewhat on that point but still kept some awful stuff and the world was on average less interesting than Morrowind.

Now they are finally trying to improve the RPG rules to something acceptable and if they have to remove attributes and skills to do it, then so be it! A nice world of Morrowind's quality with some much more interesting RPG rules and it'll be the best TES game ever by far! There's still something missing that Daggerfall had though but I think it's impossible to find a new game of that kind unless you go for very niche stuff which means very low budget :/

Meh. Ever since Morrowind, TES has been streamlining itself down to appeal to a wider audience.. So all these changes do not surprise me one bit, but I wouldn't go crying to the heavens about how Bethesda are "dumbing it down"(Whoever coined that phrase should be shot IMHO) but in Bethesda I trust, and so far haven't let me down all their changes are necessary and worth-while so I'm happy. Unless TES 6 came out as a linear corridor slash 'em up then I would consider that "dumbing it down", but Skyrim is shaping up nicely; and all the changes have had a lot of thought put in, not cut this and that which was a major case in Dragon Age II.

im reserving judement until i play the game, from what ive seen so far it seems like its gonna be nice and deep

"Dumbing Down or Streamlining "

Half empty or half full?

Rocky Horror Picture Show Audience replies "Same thing!!"

:shrug:

I'll stop you right there. One thing I think people just automatically throw out the window unless they take it in the most menial of sense is the thing we call "progression". Obviously things must happen in a story and with levels and such, but everyone wants to all ready assume that everything about a character is set and will never change throughout the course of the events in which we actually play them. Portal 2 made me realize just how terrible games are at progressing things beyond the actual progression of events, having characters not react to the events in ways that are appropriate. Of course, Portal 2 is the most excellent example of how to change that even if it is just a "dark humor" story.

My RPG sessions have always been about my characters changing in some way shape or form within a few days due to the circumstances presented. My brash mage learns the importance of diligence, my weak elf learns the danger of the world, and my sneaky troll learns that some targets deserve to be let go. Everyone seems to want to fit in an archetype and do absolutely nothing with it. The idea of progression sneaks its way into game mechanics quite nicely, and with everyone clamoring that "Oh, we're just a prisoner and we should make up how we got there" it would be nice for people to realize that we're not always going to be so different than others. We've our race, and we've our looks. That's all we need until we make an actual name for ourselves. We become the Dovakiin. We become the legend. We don't need to have advantages right off the bat.

forgot where i read it but someone brought up a good point earlier. if they are taking out things but replacing them with other things can it really be called dumbed down or streamlining. if indeed spells interact with the environment more and let you set stuff on fire etc. then why wouldnt that be more sophisticated than oblivion magic that was just a different projectile for each type and nothing else. dual wielding has been added finally and shield bash and probably some other things have been added to combat. the only thing that i kinda miss and frankly its not a huge deal for me is attributes........but i will survive. i just think there are alot more pluses to skyrim so far than minuses.

You forgot the couple hundred perks, I can't wait