yes.......and since im an even bigger fallout fan than a TES fan i cant believe they actually added them in. perks are awesome.

Its streamlining, but in this case they are really the same thing.
And I don't like some of the changes. Perks are great, but removing attributes is bad. I like the new features for spell casting, but removing spellmaking is bad.

Oblivion was "streamlined" enough for me. People say we need to keep faith. Oblivion already tested my faith, Skyrim was supposed to redeem that faith. So far it isn't.
But thats my opinion.

People are just really eager to judge one way or the other.

"This is dumbing down and already dumbed down series!"
"I want my character screen to look like a spreadsheet! You aren't real fans! This isn't an RPG!"

There is doubt that it will be a good game. I get it. But do you want to give them the benefit of the doubt or not? Do you actually want to see the game in action before you throw a hissy fit or start humping Todd's leg?

The forums needs a more "let's wait and see" attitude. Because...

1) Discussions don't go anywhere
2) It's too hostile
3) THERE IS A LOT WE STILL DON'T KNOW
4) The stuff we do know, is still only gained from comments and second hand sources

Thank you so much for saying this, my thoughts exactly.

Perhaps you should have not stopped there, but read the rest of what I wrote . . . and made a little attempt to understand where I was coming from, instead of jumping to conclusions about me. I NEVER said that character should not have their skills improve . . . I was talking about Attributes. The two are not the same thing. Look up the word.


Attributes should define your character's inherent strengths and weaknesses . . . giving your character a bonus in one area, means that you have to give yourself a penalty in another area. I NEVER suggested that I wanted my character to be above average at the beginning of the game. It just isn't realistic that my character should aways begin the game exactly the same, whether she is a mage, a warrior, or a thief . . . and then, over the course of 200 game days, end up way above average, with a bunch of maxed out skills . . . because she had no inherent weaknesses (because so mainy gamers whine if any limitations are put on their character).

I don't think Skyrim is being dumbed down at all, at least not from what I have seen

Attributes were the worst part of the Elder Scrolls character system. The methods of raising them encouraged you to not take relevant skills as major, or to train skills you would never use (like hand to hand) to get the extra attribute points at level. All they did was raise damage, carried weight, and mana. You can bet there will be perks for that.

Having more armor or weapons skills makes the game worse, not better, because the player cannot effectively use a greater percent of what they find. Oblivion improved upon things by adding special moves so the player could do more with what they have. Skyrim seems to be carrying this to the next level with perks and special finishing moves.

Birthsign removal I am less happy with, because several really changed the way you played the game. But again, think perks.

Almost all the skills removed from Morrowind and Oblivion I never used or hardly ever used in quite a lot of playtime. There are none I will miss.

Now Oblivion was dumbed down, not through character mechanics, but through a world leveled to the point where the player would never be challenged by overwhelming opponents and quests written for an 8 year old where you were led through by the hand. Fallout 3, thankfully, did not have these issues, and the dev team seems to be emphasizing the Skyrim will not either.

Agreed, but then again...I always agree with you, its like you read my mind.

I can never understand why some people act as if attributes do not and should not exist and only adds to ruining the "realism" or "improvement" to a video game. Attributes is a form of data used to measure a character's abilities, etc. Even if Bethesda decides to not show this set of data in Skyrim, it's still there but just not available for viewing. Attributes are there whether people deny it or not. Different people have different levels of strength, intelligence, endurance, and so on. If not for attributes, everyone would virtually be the same.

I cant answer this poll, some things I love ( most of it ) some things Im concerned about

same

"In their eyes, it's called trimming.
[NUMMINIT]!!!"

*cue Jeremy Soule's epic Nordic martial tunes*

This pretty much sums up my opinion.

I'm interested because it's an elder scrolls game and because modding is available again, but to be honest, some of the changes they're making concern me a lot.

LOL. What an incredibly biased poll. Seriously. There isn't a "no" option, which I find hilarious. Just "i don't know" or "yes".

That makes no sense considering they've added more than they've removed.

The way I see it the begining of the game just got moved from after you become who you will be to a few weeks before you start to become that person. So now instead of just saying what you did you DO IT.

But that also depends on if there are quest perks like in fallout as those could replace birthsigns and class entirely extremely well and there could be several such reqards before heading out from the first town.

Even if there arnt im expecting 5-10 perks and the 5-10 stat picks before we leave that place.

No. They removed the ability to start the game as unique character . . . a character who has the strengths and weaknesses that you have always be able choose for your character build, That is not the same thing.

It is totally unbelievable that a Mage, Warrior, and a Thief player character would all start out EXACTLY the same . . . you are NOT beginning the game as a child, but as a character who has lived for YEARS . . . long enough to have found themselves a prisoner, who is about to be executed. With Skyrim's Perks and Fast Leveling system, your character won't have any inherent weaknesses . . . because I'm fairly sure (based on what has been released so far) that the perks will only give you bonuses. So there is NOTHING to prevent you from maxing out all your skills. How is this better?

Does anyone else here feel like bashing their head against a brick wall everytime they see one of these threads in the forum?

Every joker is making wild assumptions about a gave they HAVE NEVER EVEN PLAYED. This must surely fit the description of idiocy.

It really doesn't hurt for people to express their concerns about a game before it's released.

The assumptions aren't "wild" considering TES games have a history of dumbing down, considering the current trend of 'streamlining' games in general, and considering the amount of 'streamlining' we know they've done already in Skyrim.

A lot of improvements can be made to games late in the development process. If everyone just spoke positively about every single aspect of the game we see glimpses of, there would be no chance of improvement.

Consider it constructive feedback.

Personally I hated the way attributes were handled in oblivion. Trying to get +5 at level ups by grinding skills I would never normally use was tedious so Im glad they have been removed, im certain there will be perks which basically act as attribute buffs ( perk for extra melee damage or encumberance = strength )

And Having every skill contribute to a level will feel much more natural and not allow you to remain at level one with 100 in all your minor skills. Most of all I love this new system as it will allow me to pick whatever race I want based on personal preferance and not because of what attributes they will start off with ... gone are the days of scrolling the internet to find out exactly which race/gender I need to be to become the best mage. I would probably never choose an orc in oblivion due to their attributes but I am liking the idea of a first playthrough with an orc in skyrim with the new freedom

Well see from a question of is it downed down or streamlined.. I dont see the start as either I see it as just very different from ob and mw and daggerfall. And that isnt a bad thing nor an inherantly good one. Its just different.

Renewing is the word you are looking for.

I think generally Bethesda is streamlining, and I am generally ok with the direction they are taking Skyrim.

I am only put off by one thing. They removed H2H as a skill, I used that all the time! I loved playing monks. Remember last time you removed an entire category of weaponry? People are still complaining about spears. I'd like em both back.

So you missed the part where I wrote: "With Skyrim's Perks and Fast Leveling system, your character won't have any inherent weaknesses."

Removing inherent weaknesses from the character build IS streamlining/mainstreaming the game . . . removing the Classes was done (according to Todd) because too many players whined that they "messed up" their character build . . . because (and this is my take) they didn like the way that particular class limited their character. A LOT of people here are totally against anything being put in this game which might put a limitation on their character . . . and Beth seems to be appeasing the mainstream gamers again. THAT is streamlining. The two terms are the same thing . . . "dumbing-down" = "streamlining." They both mean simplifying.

There are so may details that we still dont know, we assume the worst without knowing anything as a fact.
birthsigns had being removed, but whose to say that a player will not receive x amount of skill points/perks to spend on char creation, there are races and i hope that thy will keep their str and weaknesses.
mysticism was removed by name only every spell is still there, and the spells will be a lot more interesting.
I have to admit that i'm very happy from the removal of attributes, in every rpg that i have ever played there arent any skills only attributes, the attributes define the strengths of the toon.
with skill system everything is a lot more logical my action will define how strong, smart, what type of weapons my toon can use.
a blade dancer who use dual wilding will need a lot more finesse then one that use a mace, and logically he will miss and be weary faster, on the other hand a 2 handed mace wielder will be very clumsy.
The skills represent the knowledge. i believe that the attributes are still there but hidden.
A good RPG is defined by the way the player feel involved in the plot and player development and i dont mean i want an uber toon. the scenery, conversation with npc, the look and feel of the cities, quests.
If my toon trespass into a fried house he might give me lodge and food, trespass into a stranger house will end in kicking me out. this is a wonderful change.
I want to feel that the place is breathing, involving quests, active combat, and for me it worth a lot more then the loss of attributes.

Why, what stopped you from maxing out all of your skills before? Attributes sure as hell didn't.

And again, I'd like to bring up: Perk limit.
Even without it, your main weakness would be the perks you couldn't choose, just like with classes, your weaknesses would be the skills you aren't trained in.