"It will be possible to raise all skills to the maximum 100 points but it isn't possible to get every perk in a single playthrough." http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/1407/article/bethesda-reveals-new-skyrim-facts/

Attributes were not perfect in Oblivion (they were better in Fallout 3), so there is a lot of room for improvement . . . which is why their weaknesses in OB is not a valid argument for just removing them.

If attributes were actually done as attributes (instead of being more like skills), that would be a good first step. (Attribute definition: "a property, quality, or feature belonging to or representative of a person or thing.") If Attributes were done in a way that was inherent to your character (initial character build attribute points would only rarely increase) , , , AND if an Attribute would truly limit your ability to increase the related skill, then character builds would remain truly unique. You would decide on what strengths and weaknesses that you wanted your character to have at the beginning of the game . . . by the distribution of points in the Attributes. These Inherent strengths and weaknesses would determine your initial skill points AND how much each skill could be increased. To compliment this, leveling up should be slow . . . NOT fast.

But... That's the EXACT direction they're going in. Every game has been removing more and more skills. And I refuse to believe that Climbing, Enchanting, Mysticism, Hand to Hand, etc. were all redundant.

just like with TESIV, I'm sure there will be changes that I like and changes that I don't like. I still expect it to be an excellent game.

Because more skills equals complexity and depth?

Especially now, with perks that add more detail to skills, other than just a number that raises another number. Yes, more skills would equal more perks, but with too many skills, everything would be too convoluted, and the difference between the perks (or even the skills) would wane.

Not to mention there are reasons why they were removed, and not because in the name of "streamlining".

With the direction they are going it certainly looks like character development will be "streamlined" all the way back to the NES era. Limiting character creation choices at the beginning is a huge loss. Gutting attributes looks like it was a major mistake. Everything else just looks like stupid and unnecessary limitations in game play.

....cutting levitation / birthsigns / classes out of the world....where they already exist...is plain stupid. Nothing more to be said about that.

Cutting mysticism/h2h/blades/blunts as separate skills..... a waste...only done because of the perk tree trap they created for themselves when they gutted attributes. (ie...forced reduction in skills)

Not having spears, throwing weapons, crossbows, separate clothing pieces, armor, etc.... again, pointless reduction in game play choices. Not really dumbing down...just moving in the opposite direction of the open world concept that makes this series so special.

You always like to assume the worst of people, don't you Arwen? They're stupid. They want to godmode. They don't want a challenge. They want everything handed to them. And so on. Is it inconceivable to you that maybe someone might choose, say, a mage for their class? Then an hour later they realize they're using a sword and bow almost exclusively over spells? Thus they are not playing to their class. Thus they chose the wrong class. Thus they find they need to go back and create a new character that's a warrior?

As for attributes, they were little more than middlemen in Oblivion. As Todd said, the only reason you increased them was to increase another attribute, whether it was your encumbrance, magicka, magicka regen, or whatever. All they did was remove the middlemen. That's removing bloat. That's the very definition of streamlining.

I think I'm ok with the changes they have made. As much as I liked the concept of leveling up as you use skills, the multiplier was always a bit broken and needed an overhaul, and many of the attributes were largely replicated by skills. I'm ok with losing the attributes, as long as the new system works.

I'm also good with the loss of skills. I'd rather they stay and be improved, but I can see why they've gone, and the perks seem like a good option as a replacement.

I like that they've improved the animation and the leveling (In theory) because these were some of my largest criticisms of Oblivion, other than the poor dialogue and quest design that has always been a feature of the TES games.

I miss levitation and potentially spears, but those are hardly further reductions as they didn't make Oblivion either. I'd like them back at some point though as they offer strategic alternatives. Crossbows, I don't care about unless they are made substantially different from Bows. Mostly people want them because they were once available, and that's it. That isn't enough of a reason. They need to actually offer something other than a graphical alternative to a bow.

There is a misconception that more content means more depth but that simply isn't the case. Its about what you can do with the content you are given. Previously fire, shock and ice magic were all essentially the same. If we are shallow we are happy when water magic is added, that does fundamentally the same thing. If we look for depth we are happy when these types of magic are differentiated from each other (as they have been)

Bottom line is, I'll need to wait and see, but I think I'm good with the direction things are taking.

Well, first, considering they've added crafting and made perks do something to gameplay, instead of just changing a number, I'm quite certain that they simplified SOME things and made others more complex, so to me the depth stays at pretty much the same level.

Also, no, before you ask, there is NO ONE that likes to play child games ok? so stop saying that "the mainstream" are polluting the games you play, and making them dumbed down.

Also, yes Arwen, your point stands, we probably won't be able to be unique at the beginning... oh well. I'll just become unique later. How many people live pointless lives for quite a while, and THEN discover their potential? maybe the dovahkiin is one of them. But no, I won't struggle to win this one, it IS true we lose that. I just don't care much really. (and erm... it was only in Daggerfall that you had disadvantages... in the next games you only had skills and attributes to raise, you had no limit)

And the thing I'm wondering about though: why do you say we'll level every 20 minutes? yes, they've made it faster, but seriously, it took quite a while to get a level up for certain characters. Thieves and assassins leveled fast though. So I think the problem wasn't in the leveling itself, but in the rate at which skills increased (compare sneaking to restoration you'll see what I mean)

Since Daggerfall, all I have seen them remove is skills that are unbalanced/not needed. Mysticism, Spear, and Climbing come to mind.

how about making better?

Actually, thats my main concern if I'm honest. The promised "quicker leveling". I'm slightly worried that if you are leveling too frequently, it will take any feeling of satisfaction away from leveling up. But until its released, its kinda hard to say. I'm sure its one of those things that they are tweaking all the time.

The rest, I'm ok with. As you say plenty of depth has been added, and while some has been removed, the only other thing that mildly concerns me is the lack of spellcrafting.

The problem is that the time, resources, man power & cost of making UBER AAA games is increasing at an alarming rate. To be able to make a game like skyrim in a reasonable amount of time is requiring ever LARGER & LARGER groups of people. Overhead is exploding. Streamlining is a necessity. They literally cant work on everything so they have to use their time wisely. If something isnt working out and they cant think of a cost sensitive to fix it, they gotta dump it. Also at the same time, they need to add new content and new ideas to their franchise, which of course requires more time and resources. To make up the money that they are spending, they HAVE to release on consoles. They must increase their fan base. Streamlining, streamlining, streamlining... I know its a bit of a dirty word, but its understandable.

We are going to get a great game. They will try to please as many people as possible. Try to keep an open mind guys. Its not like BGS wants to make us unhappy. They just have to make a game that will be successful for them as a company, so that they can make more games later. That means compromises. Youre going to get new and cool things, at the expense of losing a couple things. From what we have seen and heard so far, it looks like we are gaining much more than we are losing coming from Oblivion & Fallout 3. Thats a BIG win for us fans.

I know many of you would like to see something closer to Daggerfall or Morrowind. But those games ALREADY exist. Nothing is taken away FROM you when they streamline. Morrowind will always be there for you. Skyrim being different shouldnt affect you personally. Its a brand new game for Pete Hines sake. It isnt MW or DF or OB or FO, its a new monster, a new entity. Its Skyrim. Our new toy, will have brand new flaws and more importantly brand new awesomeness for us to enjoy. But dont forget, that YOU are only a small fraction of the market they MUST create to make money on this beast of theirs. If they please only the most hard core RPG super fans, this game will lose a fortune.

Ok, this post has gotten a bit wordy. So I will end with one word. A very important word. Boobies.

Why depend on the biased "As Todd's saids..." as proof of anything? Of course Todd is going to spin all bad news in as good a light as possible.

Edit: rudeness cut out

Because personally, I agree with Todd on this matter. With certain mods for Oblivion like nGCD, it became very clear to me that they were little more than middlemen. With that mod, I was basically able to ignore them entirely. I was able to just do what I wanted and the attributes went up automatically. If I wanted to increase my encumbrance, I didn't focus on increasing my strength, I just focused on increasing my skills and encumbrance followed.

Whoa.......

I never thought I would say this: I agree with you.

You go gurl!

I really don't think the game is being dumbed down. They seem to be making it more accesable, yet they're not compromising anything that makes TES TES.

I must agree with Dragonborn1 on this issue.

I look at Skyrim as a new game, with it's own features.

Edit: I have enjoyed the all of the past TES games since the mid-90's, and each one was a bit different.

I can hardly wait to play Skyrim.

You are arguing that you liked better treatment of attributes with this post. Not gutting them.

No, I'm saying the mod made it very clear just how unnecessary attributes really were. The mod effectively removed them, but not entirely as other mods still needed those numbers, and it was better for it. Skyrim is doing likewise. It's cut down on unnecessary bloat.

Mitheledh was saying that not having to manage them was perfectly alright. stop making people say what they haven't said

Yep, thats always the best option. The key question is: Will removing the attributes cause the series to lose any depth or complexity? And I don't think it will (though I'll need to play to be sure).

My point is that while improving attributes would be better, things have not got worse or more simple. They have not been dumbed down, merely streamlined.

I'll have to wait until I play. For the most part in recent years I have completely felt that RPG type games are getting dumbed way down and action/fast paced is getting put in it's place. It basically seems to take away from the one element I love which is character building and leveling. They give levels too quickly and less choices to choose when leveling.

But there's really no way of knowing until I get the game into my hands and see how it plays. They've obviously removed some stuff, but they seem to be replacing it nicely with other stuff. So for now I'm just going to say they are building upon what they know to the best of their abilities.

When you make an omnicient compass give the player the exact location of an amulet placed deep within the depths of a dungeon no one has visited in hundreds of years, based on some npc saying "here let me mark it on your map, its somewhere in there" your dumbing down and streamlining

When you lump all bladed weapons into one skill even though Short swords, Longswords, claymores, Tanto's, daggers, fatherless swords, broadswords, all handle differently.....and then omit half that list of variety to just 3 types of swords blades , your dumbing down and streamlining the game. (skyrimas one handers and every one handed weapon under that with thier own tree, this does not apply)


when you reduce the variety of melee and throable weapons to 3 types of blades and axes and bows based on the notion that despite a new game, new tech, new time the bugs of old weapons will still be present and that they are "superflous", your dumbing down and streamlining the game, people forget that NPC'S use weapons too...

when you remove attributes based on the rational that all they were used for was to raise health, fatigue and magicka, instead of changing them so that they are better than previous games and actually -matter-. your dumbing down and streamlining the game

When you remove birthsigns because people didnt read the ***** description about each Birthsign and then cried that they are vulnerable to Fire BECAUSE ITS A WEAKNESS, your dumbing down, and streamlining....


when you remove Atheltics and Acrobatics and not say an alternative, or instead CHANGE HOW THEY WORK & WHAT THEY DO, based on the rational "who makes a character that runs" you are streamlining

So much for Go anywhere and Do anything right? I mean people who make characters that run are being discriminated against now......and people who liked to use spears and cross bows can't do as they wish because their preferred type of weapons are "superflous"


one may not share this viewpoint and thats fine and dandy adding features do not make up for losing features......thats like saying your Ferrari's engine was taken out but its ok! we gave the car a fresh pine sent, auto lock breaking, an awesome stereo system and it starts on its own the moment you sit inside <3 the hell Dual wielding was added in late, and based on Todds statements about it, it seems it wasnt a direct planned feature but a jump since people have requested this feature in the past, so that and perks are hardly a reason to why Attributes are out because attributes were in game early in developement, along with Dragons and a combat system.


Don't give me garbage about they can't or shouldnt do anything about it because features that were not in game months ago are now,

Ridable horses

Killing -everyone- in Skyrim

Combining spells

Dragon shouts at one point were mix and matchable

its their freaking game they can do anything with it, there is nothing they -can't- do within reason..so I don't want to hear they can't...

of course people are going to talk up when things are getting removed, especially for poor reasons, you have to be some kind of insane to say OMG THEY ADDED DRAGON SHOUTS AND LORE? NO SKYRIM IS RUINED, in this case nothing added in Skyrim is detracting from it, that doesn't add up, how can in Skyrims case from what we know so far adding features be a bad thing? where as removing stuff, people like certain features they are going to call up about it.....

Will skyrim be a lesser game because of removed features? unlikely did oblivion svck because there were no Crossbows and spears? no it did fine without them, its not whats best for the game, its for the players, OPTIONS, people go on and on about how this should be option and that, but the moment you bring up removed features that Kumbya feeling goes out the window, like Damn a guy gets trampled because he thinks features should have been improved and changed instead of cut out :bonk:

Ever since with Oblivion I have come to expect to be disappointed by Bethesda and not riding the hype. So I expect a lot of dumbing down and that they make the game more casual friendly.

You have it backwards. What happened was new players didnt gove a crap either way they just did what new players do they came up with help guides for other new players and posted long blah blah blahs on the game...

And the devs didnt like what they saw.

This change isnt FOR the new players its because of them.. its for the devs because they want the game to look a certain way to those new players.