I feel the above quote is quite pertinent to this topic. Although I do not agree completely with the above post it is still worth extended discussion.

Personally, I feel that the quest marker is the only true issue with the game being casualized to the point of hurting the core enjoyment of the game (barring auto-heal being faster than presumed). Quest markers in the game make it so that Bethesda essentially no longer has NPCs give full quest directions/discriptions and thus removing the quest marker or ignoring it are not options since it is impossible to finish the quest purely by NPC description. Not only does this remove the fun of exploration by making you mindlessly drag your feet to the next quest marker but it also hinders roleplaying by making it so your character magically knows where the quest item or boss is.

I believe this issue may be solved with a moderate amount of effort (although it is probably too late to fix now). First, and most importantly, all quest givers must give detailed directions in order for people to be able to complete quests without a quest marker. Secondly, there should either be a quest marker toggle in the menus or in the journal menu you should have the option to turn quest markers on for specific quests (thus you would not need to toggle the marker on for difficult quests then turn it back off after completion).

To clarify: I fully expect to purchase Skyrim and enjoy it for hundreds of hours. The intention of this thread is the identification and recognition of oversimplified game mechanics that many feel detract from their enjoyment of the game as well as constructive criticism on how these mechanics may be changed to appeal to all fans/consumers. Anyway, please discuss in a civil manner.

I'm still undecided. The quest marker is in my opinion something horrible that should be removed; most other things will depend how they are implemented; we'll see!

I strongly disagree with the quote in the OP. I also think it's been dumbed down, what with regenerative health, but I don't see the big deal about quest markers. Sure, it does take away from the exploration but maybe there will be an option to turn them off? I don't know. I don't care, I'll enjoy Skyrim and will most likely play it for hundreds of hours.

Its not dumbing down when the company designs the game for a certain base, saying "we want to make it easier to get into" for a series that was never hard to grasp AT FACE VALUE IS "streamlining/simplifying/dumbing down"

But when your catering your game to the base where all the money is flowing with the Mentality that somehow someway there is a certain demographic of Humans filled to the brim with money but utterly incapable of navigating without an Omnicient Compass, then yes your dumbing down for no reason.

Quest Markers are optional, and health regenerates outside of combat (when all enemies are defeated) Honestly, the only people I see complaining about this game being dumbed down are the kiddies who started with Morrowind, they think they're so HxC because they thought Morrowind had infinite amount of detail and stuff and complain about Skyrim being a let down. I started with Arena, I've seen the game's ups and downs, losing features and gaining features, and honestly, Morrowind was good, but not the best. The writing was amazing, but the setting got bland after a while, combat was horrible, animations were repetitive, and there were no flails and the fast travel was "buy your way to safety" instead of "this trip will take 30 days and you might not survive" So honestly, ES has been removing features, but they've also been adding good ones that IMO, counteract the removal of features.

We don't have to push two different buttons to control both legs, losing freedom in the process.

DUMBED DOWN!


No really, these complaints sound ridiculous to me.
Baaw, I hate health regen, because spamming the infinite healing spell and pressing a button to rest sure adds for the challenge!
Exploration is ruined because where areas are that we are supposed to be know! And those icons on the compass tells you too much, you see a red dot and you know exactly what type of enemy are there at what direction, right?
Knowing which way to go ruins the sense of exploration too? It's not like it never actually shows the surroundings and you still don't know how to get to the area, it is ruined... forever.

From what little i've read it does appear to have some features simplified. How "stupid" it will play i won't know until i play it, but i fully expect to have to mod it to oblivion (or perhaps "like Oblivion" ) to make the mechanics to my liking. I mean, that has been required with their last three games :hehe:

Come to think of it, if i had only a console, i might actually wait for a price drop before playing it. Their latest games have had amazing worlds, but that's pretty much it. I've never found the game mechanics particularly good nor storylines gripping. I buy it for the world, the rest will propably come from mods :shrug:

That is not an option. There is ZERO reason to believe that Skyrim is any different from Oblivion in the sense that quest givers will not give you enough details to be able to finish the quest without the quest marker so you will be required to use it.

I don't like the term "dumbed down", because it implies that somehow stupid people are going to benefit from this.

I think Skyrim has lost a lot in its character system, so mainly, I think of the loss of attributes, skills, weapon types, armor slots, spellmaking, etc when I hear "dumbed down". While I also don't like the quest and location markers, I think those will be easy enough to mod out.

I feel that there are certain traits I could do without (I like attributes, though I'd prefer none to having them done Oblivion's way) and Athletics/Acrobatics irked me a bit (though no the game is way less exploitable..which is good). But Compass markers are useful because they allow for way more quests to be written (the writers don't need to work hand in hand with developers to make sure their intracate directions match up and the quest is followable). Regenerating Health isn't a biggie for me and No spellmaking is completely needed In my opinion.

I weep for those like the OP's Quoted source, those who can't enjoy the fine points of a game because of the not-so-fine points.

Outside the step-by-step directions from the main quest, most of the sidequests only add very shallow directions in Morrowind too.

"Go defeat the bandits hiding in the cave east of Caldera" WHICH CAVE?!

This. Restoration for me has always been a spell school to cheat death in combat, which is what it's doing now because health does not regen in combat, so healing spells are used in combat.

Quest Markers are optional. Hines said there is no setting to turn off quest markers, but you can deactivate them (probably through journal) just for all you who don't like it

That's..a relief.

As I mentioned multiple times already, quest markers are NOT optional. Quest givers do not give full directions for quests because the developers are basing all quests on there being a quest marker attached.

Your undeserved pompous attitude is not considered 'civil discussion' btw.




Health Regen is silly. Why would my character magically heal with no effort? Is he a troll? Is he Wolverine? I don't get it. There is zero reason for it. Spamming healing spells or resting at least provides and explanation for the healing besides "HURR DURR MAGICKS!!"

It's not really exploration if you aren't looking to find something

If memory serves they ALWAYS told you the name of the cave. If not that is a problem with Morrowind's system, not an excuse for Oblivion/Skyrim's



:facepalm: No, they aren't optional. In order for them to be optional you must be able to complete quests without them. If the NPCs don't give full directions then you can't complete the quests without the marker and it isn't optional

This health regen is really bothering you isn't it. Like Faulgor said, the term "Dumbing down" isn't very endearing. It's way overused anymore and it's insulting. I like everything i've seen and heard about the game and it's mechanics, and to put me in the "Dumbed down" niche isn't very flattering.

[censored] HEALTH REGEN!?

:facepalm:

Even Oblivion 99% of the quests could be completed without markers... Im sure disabling them(confirmed btw) is a viable option.

I do hate the auto regen health though

I know 99% of the quests can be completed, because i disabled my quest markers.

Why would your character become completely rested by standing still a second?
How would even 8 hours of sleep heal your every wound?
How can you still do the exact same things, with the same magnitude with 1 HP and full HP?

Pulling the realism card is just silly.
Sometimes gameplay triumphs realism... a lot of times.


In Oblivion, yes.

In Morrowind they gave you a vague direction.
City quests were the best. "Go meet this guy in Balmora", "where does he live?" "in that district" "which house?" "dunno"
So it's time to open the minimap, and hover over every door, which we magically know who lives in which house. IMMERSION. EXPLORATION!

Yeah, I mean quest givers won't just say "Oh hey there's a cave with zombies GO KILL" They will more than likely give you some sense of direction. And why would even complain about clairvoyance when Morrowind had an even more dumb downed version? Not only did MW have a minimap, but they had detect X spells, most notably keys

These are the only "features" that stand out to me as being potentially oversimplified,

Constant quest marker
I've always felt this kind of hand-holding partially removes the fun of exploring, along with removing most of the difficulty from quests.

No spellmaking
While I feel I will enjoy the new system, I think it was a mistake to remove spellmaking. The "spreadsheet" aspect of spellmaking never bothered me, and I have a feeling it never bothered most others either.

Reduced number of skills
I understand that they are balancing the different classes of skills in order to make the choices as to which skills to develop more meaningful, however I always enjoyed specializing my character into certain weapon roles and still feel that it is rather immersion breaking to be able to be skilled with a dagger just because I know how to use a club.


But while there are a few aspects I do feel are a mistake to include (or exclude), I still feel the game will be great as a whole and I can't wait to get my hands on it! I do have full faith in Bethesda producing a quality RPG, after all, Elder Scrolls is their baby and they always do what they can to make these games amazing.

I voted no because I feel it is being given a more gentle learning curve, and overall we are not losing complexity. However, I also feel that the lack of attributes and spellcrafting is unnecessary, so I voted for those as well.

Well considering that everything else is completely different than Oblivion, which is in fact the main reason people are complaining, the correct logic would be that the quest descriptions would be different from Oblivion, meaning that they would be more detailed.

Hence why I put it in quotes and added the phrase 'hyperbole' as one of its possible attributes. If you prefer to call it 'simplified' then be my guest, it makes the same implications regardless that you are insulted by. You fail to realize that "dumbed down" doesn't mean you HAVE to be dumb to enjoy it, it means that it is being simplified so that people who the game was too complicated for before could play it. If you get insulted by that it is your prerogative, but don't blame me or others.