Don't need one. How did olaf one eye and Ysgramor get into sovngarde? They didn't die in battle. Or Jurgen windcaller. Heck, Jurgen dies a greybeard, and they aren't violent unless they need to be, and seeing how they dont describe his death, it seems likely he didnt die in battle. That may not even be a requirement more than just living a life of battle as well as dying in battle or valiantly.

Yea that's right. Silence.

Stealing my phrase..... I'm on to you

Do you know exactly how they died is the thing? Do you have sources claiming they died out of combat? Ysgramor could've fought a strong warrior who was in his prime when he was frail and old, the greybeards could have shouting matches with the leader before a new one is chosen, Olaf could've died in a tournament. Point being, you don't know how they died.

LOL. If these legendary figures were killed by anyone, they'd have written about it.

But the point remains, you don't know how they died so you can't really claim they died of old age or disease and we don't know how the greybeards chose new leaders, so until you can provide a source saying they died out of combat you really have nothing.

I take issue with how Svongarde was represented. A pacifist in a warrior's paradise? It doesn't fit.

I have plenty. I have common sense. AND Tsun says that at the end of your days you will be let in. Not when you die in battle, just simply at the end of your days. There's another clue. On top of the fact that Jurgen, the founder of the way of the voice wouldn't be fighting and obviously died of old age, and still went to sovngarde.

Exactly. He wasn't always a pacifist, so clearly living a life that involved battle and war is enough.

It's possible he died in combat, again we have no clue how these men died so we can't instantly jump to conclusions and seeing as we have a source saying sovngarde can only be entered by dying valiantly in combat over a article that has one source that isn't even a good one at that we have more to suggest that they died in combat then the theory that they didn't.


Yes, because I totally forget that tale about how Ulfric killed Alduin with three nordic heroes, for all we know what Tsun said was because we're the dragonborn. Again, we have no clue how these men died, it's possible he died defending the other greybeards from some sort of attack by nords who disagreed with the way of the voice.

Explain how the pacifist stuck on the highest mountain in Skyrim died in battle.

I think you forgot the early life of Jurgen who used the Thu'um to fight and tried to conquer Morrowind until he was defeated when the Chimer and Dwemer united. Only after he lost did he decide that Kynareth had to be displeased since they lost so he founded the Greybeards and the Way of the Voice.

The way the greybeards chose new leaders is through a shouting match to the death

Defending their home from invaders who protest the way of the voice

Shouting match with a nord who didn't want to follow the way and wanted to keep teaching other nords how to shout.

The point missed yet again. It shows that simply valiant deeds in your life or living a life of war is enough, and if nords waltzed in and killed jurgen, the most powerful tongue at the time, SOMEONE would have said so.

No they don't.

In our case it's a special and unique offer, there is a lot of lore that isn't straight up said and we have to guess, we know nothing about how these men died and there is no source saying how they died and they make no mention of how they died when we met them in sovngarde.


So you know everything there is to know about greybeard traditions?

Wow this had drifted from a Dunmers role in the CW to the specifics of Soverngarde.

You just said we don't know how Greybeards choose a new leader. Now you are saying they are. However, I think Paarthurnax is permanent Greybeard leader.

I think the Colonel and Cider make the best couple in all of the forums.

Anyways, the Dunmer and the Civil War. Yeah, remember that topic?

Welcome to TES lore, where we make a ton of theories to explain stuff instead of going into speculation, seriously there are so many theories in TES.

I'll throw you a bone and say maybe its because we're special. Yet, Jurgen Windcaller the founder of an almost pacifist religion where he sits on a mountain and meditates in peace and seclusion isn't gonna die in battle. You can't give a logical reason explaining how he would and why his means of death wasn't explained. Its clear he died of natural causes.

I'll make another thread since this is derailing.

... a source that even calls itself a "speculation," all based on some moldy letters in a basemant. Remember that the Nords' version of mythic truth is whatever makes a good story. These things aren't scientific.

About Dunmer: My Dunmer was going to join the Stormcloaks because the empire made an outlaw of him for no reason. Then he got so rich finding arcane artifacts that he decided he didn't want to be bossed around by Nords. The End.

Better then anything else we have.

Not good enough to base an argument on. Not that this place needs much excuse.

Enough to know that the way of the voice wouldn't call for that. You have a source saying they do this? Nope.

You have a source saying it doesn't?

the Way of the Voice teaches only that violence is the least of the Voice's uses, and it should be used for that purpose only in times of "True Need"

^Right there.

Ok, one of the true needs could be deciding to choose a new leader to lead the greybeards or to protect their homes.