Being an Irishman myself, i've noticed quite a few similarities between the Dunmer and the Irish, for one, the Irish for hundreds of years (and even a little now) had the English invading their land and trying to change their religion and such, and anyone who's played Morrowind knows that the Dunmer are going through the same thing. If you think about it theres quite a few similarities between them, lets hear your thoughts.

Edit: I'm no so sure this belongs in the lore forum actually...

Forced religious conversions and invasions are common in many societies, so the Dunmer would have that in common with many groups of people. They do have some similarities, but the Empire represents the Romans and not really the British, so there is a difference there. It would seem that Bretons are close to the Irish though. The Dunmer just seem to be a unique race not based on any real-life people and happen to be in a situation that is quite common in our own world. I'm sure there are many similarities, but the Dunmer aren't specifically based on any people in our world, in my opinion.

How do you figure the Bretons are like the Irish?

This space reserved for Gallowglass.

The Bretons are based on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_people, who are Celts, like the Irish, but they have French influences.

:banghead:

These threads make me sad. If you want to know why, read this one.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1057812&st=0

.... Being a (non-native) english speaker myself, i've noticed quite a few similarities between the Argonians and the English, for one, the English for hundreds of years (and even a little now) speak English, walk on two legs and eat and drink, fought their wars, and anyone who's played Morrowind or Oblivion knows that the Argonians are doing pretty much the same thing. If you think about it theres quite a few similarities between them, lets hear your thoughts....


Pointing out isolated character/racial traits and comparing them to real world people is short sighted at best and doesn't really add any further insight to either - in your example - the Irish, nor the Dunmer, especially when you take the differences into account. By my knowledge, Irish do not have red eyes and greyish-blue skin and a high resistance to fire, do not condone murder as a means of solving (political and personal) conflicts and do not inhabit a country called Morrowind in a computer game world named Tamriel (just to name a few major differences).

In essence:
Art reflects (or has similarities to) the real world in some kind, way or degree, because it is the product of an artist whose background, experience, feelings, life etc. are part of the real world. What counts is the point where that art becomes something new, imaginative - a thing of its own a self-sustaining concept. It may share similarities, even be in parts inspired by the real world, but it is not simply a copy of a real world concept. Imperials are not Romans just because they wear roman-"style" armor, Redguards are not African because they are black and live in a desert and Americans are not English just because they speak English.

Let the Dunmer be the Dunmer and not Irish with red eyes.

How did I miss this topic? I was on here a few minutes after it was posted! Mo Chreach!

Anyway, down to business. There are many similarities between the Imperial invasion of Morrowind, and the English (and, after the Union, British) invasion of Ireland; they were both met with fierce opposition, and both had limited success. But, of course, that's not special; most English and Imperial invasions had limited success. It's not exactly unique for a country to have to defend itself, militarily, politically, and culturally, against rivals.

The only similarities I can think of are cultural; the fact that positions in Dunmeri Houses are not passed from father to son is similar to Irish practices, of both tanistry (choosing a male heir from the leader's relatives, possibly elected by retainers and nobles) and leaders being elected by people in positions who are also elected by, or at least have to have the support of, the local population. The Dunmer also have three gods who are seen as the same thing; two pairs of them, in fact, one seen as good, and the other ambiguous. But the Triple Goddesses are what the Irish Gaels are famous for. The best example is the Morrigan; definitely similar to Boethiah, with her role as a goddess of war and sovereignity. Her two other aspects are not as similar to the Daedra or the Tribunal, and there's also less unique to the Gaelic gods, but you could still make a connection. Where it doesn't work is the Dunmeri obsession with their religion; the Irish were historically far more open-minded, and both Christianity and paganism were allowed to be in the same area. That wouldn't happen willingly with the Tribunal and Nine Divines. The ashkhans also have wise women, and a system of retainers, but that's not unique to the Irish, even if the style and purpose of the ranks does seem to be more similar to Irish practice than most others.

There are many more differences. The Dunmer aren't entirely based on the Irish; they're more Assyrian than Gaelic, and have many other things in there, from Arabia to the Mongols.



That's like saying that English are Saami because they're both Caucasian

Me too.

May I join you? :banghead:

If you want to generalize Dunmer as being like the Irish due to the conflict with the Nords, perhaps they should instead be compared to the Scandinavian peoples. Though they cling to older traditions, they are in constant struggle with the Roman Empire (Imperials) which make ceaseless attempts to spread Christianity (Imperial Pantheon) and expand the borders of their empire.

I'm going to reply to the Breton remark with quotes from myself.

OP makes a solid argument.

Moderator: Quoted post deleted.
I myself agree with several of these fine people that they have their similarities, but not enough to consider them being based entirely on them. The Dunmer are just too diverse, between the Great Houses and the Ashlanders, to associate to any one society. And as Nalion has said, most ideas stem from a multitude of real world sources, any one of which can be compared and thought to be the primary source depending on your views. The OP's views are that of an Irishman, thus Jim's proposal.

The only group I would safely say come from a single primary source is the Imperials and the Romans. Though there are major differences, I would say between their architecture and military dominance has a strong standing to be their heaviest influence. Their are, however, several points that would contradict this theory, any of which could be pointed out in such a way as to make my own idea look foolish. However, those pointing them out should also acknowledge some validity in the proposer's thoughts, and in doing so seem much less insulting. Especially when they mock them, a rather childish act to say the least.


And to finish my post I shall say what I have been dying to the whole time: Morrowind does have quite a few pubs and beverages Imperials only seem to have wine, rum, and beer, but those Dunmer have everything from Sujamma to Flin.

Tamalak was saying the exact same thing as Nalion, albeit in a more crude manner. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with what the forum name implies we should post here. "Elder Scrolls Lore". I think it's meaning is pretty obvious; discussion of the lore within the Elder Scrolls world. Comparing the Dunmer to the Irish gives us no deeper insight into the workings of their culture, it's just finding similarities between a fictional race and a real race. Once we find these influences, than what? It doesn't lead the discussion onto anything greater, it'll just turn into a circular thread of agreements and disagreements of the original post. It has no place here.

I'm not so sure about that. In my opinion, there's a wide range of influences there too. There's the Roman Empire obviously, the Chinese (Ancestor Moth silk seems to be pretty big, and China was the only place to make silk once upon a time), the Druids (Stonehenge, i.e. Doomstones/Runestones), Arthurian legends/Tolkien (do I have to explain this one, guys? ), the Japanese (katanas, Tsaesci/Akaviri surnames/facial features [although I'm still adamant these are the only Japanese things about the Tsaesci]), Kelsey Grammer and Orson Welles (their accents... I think some kind of upper-class New Yorker kind of thing? It's that British-sounding American accent, wherever it's from).

Then there's the whole obsession with moths and the slave rebellion against magical elves, led by a maybe silver-skinned woman.

If members don't get more upset with each other than we already are, we can give this thread one more chance. But some posts are going to have to go away.

You're on shaky ground when you stretch to make a claim like "the Dunmer are the Irish" or any claim to the effect that there is a direct mapping between something in the real world and entities in the TES universe. Because what those TES universe entities are is a carefully chosen hodgepodge of sometimes-consonant, sometimes-dissonant made-up and real-world facets.

But if you are going to refute such a claim, you will have to do so decently and in order, with evidence of whatever manner you find convincing, to back up your refutation. If you do so in sarcasm, your posts will get moderated.

No, Caucasian is a very broad term. Celt is more narrow, and the Bretons seem to be the closest race in TES universe to the Irish. I am not claiming they are the Irish, but they seem to be the closest to the Irish, in my opinion.

As Jim has said, he was not sure where this should go, but if a thread is to be made it is better to have it be here. Where else would you suggest fits such a topic better? And there have been plenty of threads that give no one deeper insight into anything, yet they perpetuated. And as long as an argument remains civil, it is a debate




Do you mind if I debate you on this one? I simply have an itch to refute claims

Chinese silk compared to the Ancestor Moths is hardly a direct link, I think you're stretching that one

The Doomstones are everywhere, thus do not fall under Imperial culture. I do not believe the humans made the doomstones, but I could be mistaken.

I'm not familiar with Arthurian legend, sorry :shrug:

The Japanese are Akavir, not Imperial. The Tsaesci blended with the Imperial government and military when the Potentate took over, and the Blades are the only remaining major user of their equipment and tactics.

And I'm not familiar with Orson Welles either. Is that a voice actor for the Imperials? I suppose dialect is an important thing to consider.

Yeah, I'm not sure if there is any historical precedent for the Alessian rebellion. I'm not aware of any major slave uprising that turned into a government takeover, but my history is a bit shabby to say the least. And I doubt she really had silver skin; I believe that as much as Pelinal's hand was made of light and he travelled through time

By all means.


Both cultures are very major (if not the only) silk producers in their respective universes. That's all I'm sayin'.


Nope, they're only in Cyrodiil. And also, the Runestones are magic, Stonehenge isn't. However, they're the only cultures in either universe to have mysterious rock formations of indeterminate origin, which again, is all I'm sayin'.


To right this injustice, you must find me... a shrubbery! (dramatic chord) Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must place it here, beside this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get a two layer effect with a little path running down the middle.

(ie. Knights of the Round Table, King Arthur, Merlin... standard fantasy medieval Europe stuff)


There was also an awful lot of interbreeding at least amongst the nobility. Read the Pocket Guide to the Empire.
Also the History of the Fighter's Guild suggests the Tsaesci didn't use armor much, so the Blades armor is most likely of Imperial design.


One of the greatest film directors of all time? Citizen Kane? The radio version of War of the Worlds that according to an urban legend, made everyone think the Earth was being invaded for reals? You've never heard of him?
I suppose I could've said Brain from Pinky and the Brain for a more modern reference (the character being somewhat based on Welles and all), but that's what Frasier was there for. The guys sound almost identical.

ANYway, the point is, they have the same accent as the Imperials- American. But that's probably just because it's cheaper, but you never know.


There's some (admittedly minor) evidence to suggest she was a Kothringi, or at least of Kothringi descent. And they were silver-skinned.

So... yeah. I'm not saying these are the most amazing points ever, but at any rate there's definitely some non-Roman influences in the Imperials.

Being Native American myself, i've noticed quite a few similarities between the Dunmer and the Native Americans, for one, the Native Americans for hundreds of years (and even a little now) had the White folks invading their land and trying to change their religion and such, and anyone who's played Morrowind knows that the Dunmer are going through the same thing. If you think about it theres quite a few similarities between them, lets hear your thoughts.

Being an African myself, i've noticed quite a few similarities between the Dunmer and the Africans, for one, the Africans for hundreds of years (and even a little now) had the French and Dutch invading their land and trying to change their religion and such, and anyone who's played Morrowind knows that the Dunmer are going through the same thing. If you think about it theres quite a few similarities between them, lets hear your thoughts.

Being a Tibetan myself, i've noticed quite a few similarities between the Dunmer and the Tibetans, for one, the Tibetans for hundreds of years (and even a little now) had the Chinese invading their land and trying to change their religion and such, and anyone who's played Morrowind knows that the Dunmer are going through the same thing. If you think about it theres quite a few similarities between them, lets hear your thoughts.

Being an Arab myself, i've noticed quite a few similarities between the Dunmer and the Arabs, for one, the Arabs for hundreds of years (and even a little now) had the West invading their land and trying to change their religion and such, and anyone who's played Morrowind knows that the Dunmer are going through the same thing. If you think about it theres quite a few similarities between them, lets hear your thoughts.

PS Moonmover, I would very much like to see your family tree, and what your house looks like around holidays

You should come over sometime. It's AWESOME.

Places such as Stonehenge, Callinish, etc. were not holy sites, at least not on purpose. They were for astronomy, and that had religious connections. The purposes of the runestones are unknown. The style and architecture is also different, the location is different, the carvings are different, and Stonehenge doesn't give away free swords



That falls apart; there are stone circles across the world, not just in the lands of the Brythonic cultures. There's no similarities.



Nowhere near as narrow as people think. It's easily comparable to Germanic races, if not Caucasians, so saying the Bretons = Celts and therefore they are based on the Irish is just another one of the generalisations that often come up in these topics.

As you can see, it's impossible for anything in TES to be based on a single real-world culture. That should be pretty obvious; the Romans didn't have airships, the Norse didn't shout at enemy castles and expect them to fall down, and the Pacific Islanders didn't know how to sink their entire homeland with their swords. These topics need a bit more dedicated on the part of the OPs, don't you think?

Before Imperials arrived, Bretons were the generic "white Anglo-Saxon Protestant" race everybody could relate to.

Stonehenge predates the Celts, and its purpose has never been proven.

Thanks for your brilliant contribution to this thread. Most of you arent understanding what im saying, im not just flat out stating that the Dunmer are the Irish, what i'm proposing is that the Irish seem to be the largest influence on the Dunmer for more than just what i said in my first post (read gallowglasses), and i'd like to see if any of you agree with me. So could you stop spamming the thread and let it flow? Its really pretty pathetic a mod had to clean it up so early...