Dutch cover story: Interesting Info #2 : V - Skyrim

» Sun May 15, 2011 3:41 am

Dark Brotherhood <3

Always willing to serve the Night Mother.

YES

» Sun May 15, 2011 12:22 am

If Skyrim only has 130 such locations, we are talking about a 38-42% reduction in dungeons.

Dude. There were houses in Morrowind that were bigger than some of Oblivion's ruins!

It sounds like progress to me personally, that Bethesda is being more mindful of making each location more unique. Plus, dungeons are far more rewarding when you aren't encountering them behind every rock.

» Sun May 15, 2011 6:06 am

It seems Betheseda is choosing quality over quantity. A wise choice in my opinion.

I agree. At first I was slightly disappointed at the info but the more i thought about it the more I realized that the dungeons could be much more diverse and the citys could be more diverse as well. I really can't wait to get a hold of this game. I understand some peoples criticism of the information so far, but leave it at that. Its no reason to hate the game, wait until you play it to make that decision.

» Sat May 14, 2011 3:15 pm

Don't forget the Oblivion gates.

That adds 60.

The weapon news is awesome, Blunt/Axe were the same in OB, not any more in Skyrim!

» Sun May 15, 2011 1:07 am

I cannot confirm whether dungeons are locations. This is an exact quotation:

"There are five big cities, and more than 130 dungeons and other interesting locations that the player can discover."

There is no comma in between 'dungeons' and 'and', which suggests that 130 is the number for both the dungeons, and the other locations. I can't definitely make up out of the text if '130' refers to 'dungeons', or to 'dungeons and other interesting locations' though.

Interestingly, 'More than' (minstens in Dutch) literally means "At Least." It is as if the previewer asked the team how much locations there are in the game, and they answered "At least 130." So, more than does not have to mean that there are 134 or 136 dungeons; it could also be that they are adding many more dungeons later in the process.

If there are only 130 total locations.....I'll be pretty upset

» Sun May 15, 2011 6:00 am

I do need more explanation of how we start the game. Hopefully a dev can shine some light on that.

Spoiler

We witness our own execution. Does this mean we see our future execution and play the game in the past? Does this mean we see our character from Oblvion being executed? This doesn't makes sense at all.

There are only a couple of possible explanations.

It's either a dream, some kind of premonition or someone who looks like you (but is not you).

Or it could be your twin brother ;-)

» Sun May 15, 2011 1:13 am

Remember that one complaint about Oblivion was that its dungeons were far too close together. You could go into a dungeon, come out, and find one immediately over the next hill, and so on. It got pretty silly, and took out the fun of exploring (especially since there was literally like 3 dungeons that had unique loot in them, that was another issue, though).

Yes I definitely remember it.
If dungeons hopefully are unique, it would be more fun to be in dungeons. But I also want to be more fun outside dungeons (exterior world). And yeah, as you said, it took out the fun of exploring when there were that many dungeons everywhere.

As far as I see this situation, all that can be done is:

1) Bethesda spend some time to expand the game world (pretty unlikely, since it would require more work with landscapes and locations... basically).

2) Nothing

» Sun May 15, 2011 7:04 am

I am so pumped about the puzzles and 3d item viewer, I want Skyrim right meow!

» Sun May 15, 2011 2:13 am

For all the complaints about 130 dungeons, here are some numbers for you people:

Oblivion has the following:

54 Ayleid Ruins
54 Forts
24 Mines
91 Caves
--------
223 of what could be considered dungeons

If Skyrim only has 130 such locations, we are talking about a 38-42% reduction in dungeons.

130+* so that could be even 150.

So yeah, let's take 150 as the number of dungeons.
Each dungeon now is varied and unique, and not divided into 4 classes anymore.
They should take more time to explore in Skyrim due to being more detailed, so you will be paying more attention while exploring and occasionally slowing down to observe something. Plus to make them interesting enough, the smaller dungeons should be at least a bit bigger than some of the small ones in Oblivion.

150 unique dungeons.
20-30 settlements.
10-20 landmarks.
10-20 camps.
5 cities.
20-30 locations that are not classified as dungeons. (E.g abandoned houses, shipwrecks, etc.)
Lots of unmarked locations. (Fallout 3 had dozens, heck hundreds of them).

So people, are you still worrying now?

» Sun May 15, 2011 6:58 am

20 hours is plenty for the main quest for me. It will most likely take at least a month for me to complete it anyway, much like Oblivion did.

I do need more explanation of how we start the game. Hopefully a dev can shine some light on that.

Spoiler

We witness our own execution. Does this mean we see our future execution and play the game in the past? Does this mean we see our character from Oblvion being executed? This doesn't makes sense at all.

Spoiler

It's probably a flashforward, they usually show something that will happen later in a story, but at the same time they are often misleading and shown out of context.

Not sure that the spoiler is necessary, but I've never used one before and they seem like so much fun.

» Sat May 14, 2011 11:57 pm

Spoiler

It's probably a flashforward, they usually show something that will happen later in a story, but at the same time they are often misleading and shown out of context.

Yes, that's also a possibility, although it sounds a bit too much like the Dragon Age 2 story-within-a-story structure. Also, if you are a starting out as a prisoner, then it's not likely to be a dream/vision/flash forward, but more likely a scene where you have to escape. In which case you probably have a double.

Maybe one of the factions in the civil war is secretly backed by Alduin and has orders to find and eliminate the last remaining dragonborn in the land.

» Sun May 15, 2011 1:31 am

What exacty do they mean by low fantasy?

» Sun May 15, 2011 6:57 am

130+* so that could be even 150.

So yeah, let's take 150 as the number of dungeons.
Each dungeon now is varied and unique, and not divided into 4 classes anymore.
They should take more time to explore in Skyrim due to being more detailed, so you will be paying more attention while exploring and occasionally slowing down to observe something. Plus to make them interesting enough, the smaller dungeons should be at least a bit bigger than some of the small ones in Oblivion.

150 unique dungeons.
20-30 settlements.
10-20 landmarks.
10-20 camps.
5 cities.
20-30 locations that are not classified as dungeons. (E.g abandoned houses, shipwrecks, etc.)
Lots of unmarked locations. (Fallout 3 had dozens, heck hundreds of them).

So people, are you still worrying now?

There were 5 classes, Ob gates, 60 of them to add to your list.

How many were there in MW? How many Land types? Skyrim has 6 or so(will say 6 to be safe).

» Sun May 15, 2011 3:14 am

Ah, finally some numbers!

Morrowind: 4 citites, 18 towns
Oblivion: 8 cities
Skyrim: according to the map, there are 19+ towns/cities/settlements larger than 1 cell, including 5 major cities

Seems quite good to me.

» Sun May 15, 2011 2:20 am

What exacty do they mean by low fantasy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_fantasy

High and low fantasy are distinguished as being set, respectively, in an alternative "secondary" world or in the real "primary" world. In many works, the distinction between whether the setting is the primary or secondary world, and therefore whether it is low or high fantasy, can be unclear. The secondary world may take three forms:[3] Gamble defines three characteristics of high fantasy as;
Primary does not exist (e.g. A Song of Ice and Fire)
Entered through a portal from the primary world (e.g. The Chronicles of Narnia)
World-within-a-world (e.g. Harry Potter)

Low fantasy is a term used to describe a variety of works within differing sub-genres of fantasy fiction. The word "low" refers to the level of prominence of traditional fantasy elements within the work, and is not any sort of remark on the work's quality. Within the fantasy genre, low fantasy is often contrasted with high fantasy, which typically takes place, partly or entirely, in a completely fictional setting and places an emphasis upon fantasy elements such as magic, monsters, and non-real literary devices. Low Fantasy works typically place relatively less emphasis on such fantasy elements and often take place within real-world environments, as opposed to entirely fictional settings.

Also, if you ever played The Witcher, or Demon Souls, those are low fantasy games. Yet amazing unique and well done RPGs.

@Kefka. Oblivion gates can't really be considered, they were actually just 7 random oblivion worlds.

» Sat May 14, 2011 3:15 pm

130+* so that could be even 150.

So people, are you still worrying now?

I think you missed the point of my post. People are complaining that 130 is too many for that world size. They are afraid they are going to be running into them every 30 seconds. I was just trying to show how much they actually reduced the frequency of them.

» Sat May 14, 2011 10:39 pm

The number of dungeons is irrelevant because what is more important is dungeon size to number ratio. 100 dungeons that are 2 floors deep are the same combined size as 200 dungeons. There may be less dungeons that Oblivion, but what of the size of them? What of the challenge? How long will it take you to get through these dungeons? Normally, in Morrowind and Oblivion (except in some cases, more in Morrowind than in Oblivion), a dungeon could be cleared in under ten minutes. My brother got Oblivion the other day and installed OOO. One dungeon took him several HOURS to complete, because he kept getting demolished by this group of ancient vampires. Of course, that isn't quite the sort of difficulty we want, but it was difficulty none the less. That is what counts.

The number of dungeons doesn't matter if they can all be beaten so easily and they all give so little reward.

» Sat May 14, 2011 6:51 pm

The term "high fantasy" has a completely different meaning in literature vs. video games.

In video games, "high fantasy" has come to mean fantasy games with bizarre, other-worldly, and/or JRPG style of art direction.

"Low fantasy" has come to mean fantasy games with slightly more realistic characters and art direction.

On the spectrum of "high fantasy game" vs. "low fantasy game", in terms of art direction at least, it sounds like JRPG>Shivering Isles>Morrowind>Oblivion>Skyrim

(In literature, "high fantasy" is any fantasy story that is not set on Earth (and "low fantasy" means a story set on a realistic Earth with some fantasy elements). This has a very different meaning from "high fantasy" video games.)

» Sat May 14, 2011 3:47 pm

What exacty do they mean by low fantasy?

A more believable, less dream-like world

» Sat May 14, 2011 5:07 pm

What exacty do they mean by low fantasy?

more lord of the ringy I guess as in less huge mushrooms.

its fine really, because according to Todd Japanese fantasy is considered high fantasy and I don't like such games, so good for me

.

» Sat May 14, 2011 6:09 pm

A more believable, less dream-like world

Which is a perfect definition for the immersion and atmosphere we need in Skyrim.

» Sat May 14, 2011 10:38 pm

Spoiler

It's probably a flashforward, they usually show something that will happen later in a story, but at the same time they are often misleading and shown out of context.

Not sure that the spoiler is necessary, but I've never used one before and they seem like so much fun.

I used spoiler tags because some people don't want to know how the game starts.

I'm hoping your're not right about that.

Spoiler

I'm not a big fan of flash forwards. It could be though a flash forward and a possible outcome if you fail to stop the dragons, like a premonition. I'm also not fond of that idea either.

I much prefer to just start in prison.

» Sun May 15, 2011 1:46 am

Ah, finally some numbers!

Morrowind: 4 cities, 18 towns
Oblivion: 7 VILLAGES 1 TOWN (imperial city)
Skyrim: according to the map, there are 19+ towns/cities/settlements larger than 1 cell, including 5 major cities

Seems quite good to me.

fixed that for yah

» Sun May 15, 2011 7:11 am

more lord of the ringy I guess as in less huge mushrooms.

its fine really, because according to Todd Japanese fantasy is considered high fantasy and I don't like such games, so good for me

.

Lord of the Rings is High Fantasy, but I guess more low fantasy the way gaming defines the term.

» Sat May 14, 2011 5:28 pm

I think you missed the point of my post. People are complaining that 130 is too many for that world size. They are afraid they are going to be running into them every 30 seconds. I was just trying to show how much they actually reduced the frequency of them.

Oooh I see...

The number of dungeons is irrelevant because what is more important is dungeon size to number ratio. 100 dungeons that are 2 floors deep are the same combined size as 200 dungeons. There may be less dungeons that Oblivion, but what of the size of them? What of the challenge? How long will it take you to get through these dungeons? Normally, in Morrowind and Oblivion (except in some cases, more in Morrowind than in Oblivion), a dungeon could be cleared in under ten minutes. My brother got Oblivion the other day and installed OOO. One dungeon took him several HOURS to complete, because he kept getting demolished by this group of ancient vampires. Of course, that isn't quite the sort of difficulty we want, but it was difficulty none the less. That is what counts.

The number of dungeons doesn't matter if they can all be beaten so easily and they all give so little reward.

Exactly! I also used to spend hours in Oblivion with FCOM trying to get through some dungeons, fun times.