Kemel-Ze however doesn't say that they're made from scap-metal. Also, if you cared to finish reading Chimarvamidium, you'd find it state that the 'golem' was probably just somebody in heavy armor, and that since heavy armor was new at the time it appeared robotic (the Chimer had never seen full-body armor and mistook it for a golem). Chances are that the writer of Kemel-Ze was using non-Dwemer accounts to come to his conclusions (since there really are few Dwemer accounts), meaning that his primary sources from the Dwemer period probably similarly mistook the armor for 'mechanical men'.

And either way, you're quotes don't prove that Morrowind's armor is made from scraps, but just that it was the Dwemer's form of Power Armor, meaning that its still real Dwemer armor.
:woot:

Its from Chimarvamidium, the same source Ayaan-Si referenced: "It is only unfortunate that it resembles a Dwemer instead of one of our own". :deal:

:turtle:

The "Anceint Tales" series are a http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/essays_dwemer.shtml :deal:

Book Six of 2920, The Last Year of the First Era states:



By that time it's been over 2000 years when Dwemer vanished. Is whole book unrealiable fictional story or is Cassyr unreliable? I thought that Deadric armor has always been very-very rare. Maybe story just is rotten.

The book is dramatized historical fiction, it's probably not very accurate.

well, i got ninjad the first time around, so i'll just answer this

the chimer had seen heavy armor before in their battles with the dwemer. they had also seen the various dwemer centurions (such as the large walking ones that do look like men), and they clearly thought that the chimarvamidium was a golem, not an armored dwemer as they had previously seen (the dwemer would probably wear the more ornate armor in proper battle and be supported by their centurions and other mechanical contraptions).

going based on the "Ancient tales of the dwemer are a load of crap" (which is subjective, since they do have their uses), the story of the "power armor" ends up weaker than that of the historically based Ruins of Kemel-Ze. The narrator is an archeologist with years of experience, his account of the dwemer is more accurate than that of Sul (or so seems to be the concensus, i believe both have unique advantages). Therefore, the dwemer armor in morrowind really is dwemer armor, but not for dwemer, but for their centurions.

I had assumed the MW armor was heavy armor like that worn by heavyily armored knights, which resembled the shells of dwemer centurions (fear factor?). The OB armor, I presumed, was that worn by elite guardsmen or something.

Why are you so opposed to the Dwemer being capable of developing more than one type of armor? They can build a god capable of transcending the universe, can literally bend reality to their whim and are the most advanced race Tamriel's ever seen and yet for some reason they're confined to a single style of armor?

They might have seen Dwemer golems but its unlikely that they were that familiar with them. Dwemer armor looks for all intents-and-purposes like a golem, so it was the Chimer's mistake. Hell, just look at the Dwemer's actual golems, they're all big clunky things, the Dwemer obviously weren't' to a point where they were capable of making a golem even small enough to employ that armor.

Finally, if it had been Power Armor then Kemel-Ze's description would still be accurate, since they would still be mechanical men, actually "mechanical men" actually better describes Power Armor than it does a golem. Not to mention, why the hell would a Dwemer Centerion need 'effing armor, they're already made of metal! Besides, the bit about the Chimer not having seen heavy armor comes from the commentator, not Sul, which means that it stands outside the "load of crap"ness. Everything suggests it as Power Armor for the Dwemer, while nothing suggests that it was made from any type of scrap metal years later, besides, that theory is boring as hell anyway. If you're gonna push a baseless theory you could at least make it an interesting baseless theory.:woot:

:turtle:

Excuse me for not being as informed as other members of this discussion, but is there any evidence that suggests that they developed another type of armor?

my "baseless theory" is based on a paragraph in a leading scientific novel. if youre going to refute my proof you can at least make it plausible.

the only concepts of dwemer armor we have are the friffly oblivion type, hence dwemer armor doesnt look like a golem. a steam centurion does however look like a golem (and a "mechanical man"), making Sul's story of a dude wearing the centurion's shell and pretending to be one completely plausible. you just finished saying that the dwemer built gods and stuff, and suddenly they can't make smaller centurions? make sure your arguments dont work against you my man. the centurion's "armor" is their outside shell, beneath it they are just vulnerable machinery and wires. there is no evidence that the dwemer had power armor, there is however evidence that the dwemer had normal armor and that on one isolated insident one dwemer dressed up like a steam centurion.

im not saying they had only the type shown in oblivion (after all, the morrowind concept art had several variants). however, i dont think that the clunky, impractical morrowind "armor" was "dwemer power armor." i believe, instead, that it is put together from pieces of dwemer machinery (centurions) - and this is supported by lore.

It seems that the Cyrodiil variant was not a different variety as much as it was restored and modified.

And while the Morrowind variant seemed somewhat impractical (possibly the reason it was so heavily modified elsewhere), the components were not only worn by Dwemer, but enchanted by them. It might be that the molds used for the armor was also used for the Centurion components.

I was serious when I said the tales were a load of crap. They had nothing to do with the Dwemer at all, so I don't think you can take anything they say as real lore.

And anyway, can we try not to act like Sload, and not throw hissy fits over the fictional history of a video game?

Also, something that's been overlooked is the attitude towards the Dwemer in Morrowind. The Temple, and many Dunmer still hate and fear the Dwemer. As is stated in the Kemel-Ze essay, priests tried to stop an expedition into the ruins. I think this says something about the absence of OB's armor, namely that it was something newly-forged. I don't think the Temple would stand for anything new to be made in the Dwemer style for obvious reasons, but looting of their ruins is something that's been happening for centuries, so use of the old artefacts is inevitable. There are no Dwemer ruins in Cyrodiil, so it's hard to say if anything like the new armor could be found down there, but the price tag for the new armor also points toward it being new. If they were true historical artifacts, I think I could sell them for more than 200 gold.

edit: Let's try not to confuse game mechanics for lore.



...or we can believe a piece of lore that states that the armor is actually the remnants of Centurion pieces Dwemer devices (a large amount of these being Centurions.

edit: Fixed for Kinkade.

Except that it, you know, like, doesn't say that. What it does say is that:
"Most Dwarven armor is made of mismatched pieces from various devices, hence its reputation for being bulky and unwieldy. But a matched set from an intact mechanism is worth more than its weight in gold, for the pieces all fit together smoothly and the wearer hardly notices the bulk."

Now, from this you can discover that yes, 'most' Dwarven armor is made of mismatched pieces, afterall, looters found the pieces and didn't know how to put them together correctly. However, it doesn't say that it originally being made from remnants or scraps was the norm or that it wasn't intentionally made by Dwemer that way. In fact, it states that the armor is supposed to be like a robot, he even calls it a 'mechanism', and says that if it was fit together properly then it would work smoothly. What is working smoothly you might ask, the Power Armor!

The idea of Power Armor fits the evidence perfectly, that Morrowind's Dwemer armor is just reassembled scraps from centurions or that it was an isolated incident doesn't. "Mechanical men" describes fine what somebody would look like in a suit of Power Armor, and since Morrowind's Dwemer armor resembles a robot it accounts for the Chimer mistaking a Dwemeri set of heavy [power] armor for an actual robot.

It also makes no sense whatsoever for vast amounts of Dwemer to have actually worn 'centurion shells', unless it was a legitimate armor type for them, in which case it is for all intents and purposes, Power Armor. :woot:

That we only have concept art for the Oblivion style doesn't prove anything whatsoever except what is self-evident from the statement, that we only have that concept art. Nothing can actually be drawn from that since its highly likely that we don't have all the concept art. Not to mention that concept art isn't a definitive source anyway, alot of it looks nothing like what was actually found in game (just look at the Telvanni). I don't remember seeing concept art for the Iron Armor, shall we assume that it wasn't a legitimate form of armor either?

You can't say that the Dwemer dressing up like centurions was an isolated incident when there's proof to the contrary littered all over Vvardenfell. :slap:

No, its not. I could maybe accept that the Dwemer might have used the same pieces for their armor as they did for their centurions, but that doesn't make it scrap metal, it makes it the deliberate imitation of their centurions in order to make a more Powerful suit of Armor! Kemel-Ze even says they made mechanical armor.

:turtle:

In this day and age where we can ignore lore and assume what we want, one wonders if there's even a point in even read it.

And yet, you're the one that's misreading the lore. As I stated, Kemel-Ze states that the Dwemer did make working mechanical armor.

:turtle:

Which is drawn from speculation. And I haven't misread anything:



Because it makes total, perfect sense to make a suit of armor that is a total, complete imitation of something you've already made instead of just taking what you've already made and using that. Yes. Totally sensible.

If you stop reading after that sentence, you might be right, good thing we know better and can learn (again) that:
"Most Dwarven armor is made of mismatched pieces from various devices, hence its reputation for being bulky and unwieldy. But a matched set from an intact mechanism is worth more than its weight in gold, for the pieces all fit together smoothly and the wearer hardly notices the bulk."

That explicitly states that there are "matched sets" of the "mechanisms" and "devices" which fit together to form Dwemer armor, its just that looters don't know how to assemble them properly. That is Power Armor.

And yes, it does makes sense to imitate something that's been proven to work, however, are you really suggesting that they just rip out the insides of a Steam Centurion and hop inside rather than creating an actual functioning piece of armor?

:turtle:

"matched set from intact mechanism" =/= "dwemer power armor". it is much more likely that the mechanism in question is a http://www.uesp.net/w/images/images.new/e/ea/MW-Creature-SteamCenturion.jpg. which happens to look like a mechanical man. or golem. or homunculi.

they kill it. they rip it apart. they make it fit a human frame. or they take the pieces and reforge them into new armor.

@Kinkade: It doesn't make sense to make a speculation without citing a piece of lore that explicitly supports your point; I've seen evidence that explicitly suggests that Dwemer armor is essentially scrap. You haven't shown anything that EXPLICITLY states that they made separate suits of armor. Thus, your argument is pretty invalid. Thus, your argument has no true merit and the scrap metal hypothesis does.

Or we can believe what Yagrum said regarding the Dwemer Boots of Flying.

I have to say, you two are being pretty dense with your scrap metal argument. He did explicitly state a source, twice actually, and even provided the quotation.

As pointed out, Kemel-Ze says pretty clearly that there are matched sets which are meant to be worn as Dwemer armor - and that its a 'matched set' implies that it is intentionally designed to be put together that way, not that it was just rigged to fit a person. It can't be referring to a Steam Centurion as it states that it is meant to have a 'wearer', and Centurion's are clearly entirely robotic. That we really can find this armor all over Morrowind as individual suits, and that we can even see proof of the Dwemer wearing it, it certainly can't be an isolated incident or unintentionally designed in that fashion.

The scrap-metal bit is used to explain why most Dwemer armor that people use isn't the real set, but are mismatched pieces from different sets and some pieces probably not even from what was supposed to be armor (that's where you get your theory's basis). However that there are mismatched pieces to a working mechanism implies that there are 'real sets' of Dwemer armor, which as I see it would essentially be 'power armor' - I only wish that Morrowind would have displayed the mechanical nature of the armor.

I take it that what was in Morrowind were the 'real sets' and blame it on gameplay that they couldn't represent most of the sets being mismatched pieces from different sets (some even including Centurion parts).


Edit: Dang, did I just defend an argument of Crimson's? I think I did... oo:

I don't see how I'm being dense when I've seen a quotation that plainly states that the armor suits are pieces of scrap and nothing that plainly states that they made separate suits.

I may have been misguided with my last statement in my post at the top of this page, but I stand by everything else.

A quotation from a researcher, it's far from infallible, especially in the face of evidence in a Dwemer ruin AND the words of a Dwemer.

No, it says that "Most Dwarven armor is made of mismatched pieces from various devices." "Most" simply means that those that the people of Tamriel generally see. :prod:

But, it then goes on to say that "But a matched set from an intact mechanism is worth more than its weight in gold, for the pieces all fit together smoothly and the wearer hardly notices the bulk." Its already given that its talking about Dwemer armor, and it says right there that there are such a thing as "intact mechanisms" that "fit together smoothly" so that people can "wear" them. What is there not to get!!!! How does an "intact mechanism"/"matched set" not qualify as plainly stating that they made separate suits???

The author sets a standard of what are "matched sets" and "intact mechanisms" and is just saying that we don't get to see those very often because people don't know how to work them or don't have all the pieces and so are forced to use mismatched pieces and scraps. It doesn't say that its supposed to be that way, and they very fact that it's supposed to be any way at all means that there were working sets. Like the dude up there said, its just gameplay that we only get to see the matched sets. :woot:

:turtle:

im objecting not so much to the "matched suit" idea as to the "power armor" idea. im willing to concede that the dwemer built armor that looks like their centurions for some reason (camouflage? deception? giggles?) but i dont see it as anymore special than their regular armor.

but really, just because the "wearer hardly notices the bulk" doesnt mean that it was meant as armor for the wearer. it doesnt say simply "a matched set" (of armor, created for this purpose) but "a matched set from an intact mechanism," a mechanism being "a device consisting of a piece of machinery; has moving parts that perform some function." unless Dwemer built Gundams i take it to mean that the armor is made from Dwemer machines, "golems", but happens to fit a human well (like the armor in Sul's tale would).

also: multiple exclamation points strike me as rather rude <_<

anyways, this argument bores me, im out.