What's the connection between dwarves and orcs/Malacath that would lead to a dwarf-orc king named after Malacath?

"Yo mama is so..."

.....what are you asking??? :huh:

Dumac = Myth Echo of Malcath much in the same way Wulfharth = Shor

Can anyone tel me how do i get into Dagoth Ur

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showforum=7.

Put the fork in the lime in the coke you nut!

And what the [censored] would a dwarf-orc look like anyway? :shakehead:

Imagine Rosie O'Donnell...without the extra wee-wee and with an underbite

I thought everyone would find this as eyecatching as I did, but to spell it out, why would the dwemer, who resent the existence of supernatural entities altogether, and are fighting a war against orcs, have a king named after (if not more intimately connected to) the patron daedra of orcs?

"Yo mama is so..."

I remember seeing somewhere that Dumac's name went something along the lines of something like that. Did MK say it?

It's certainly highly probable, though not certain considering what else happens in lore, that a dwarf-orc is the offspring of a dwarf and an orc, but the dwemer would still have to have some very specific and interesting disbeliefs to engage in such a pairing, and to make the result a king.

Dwarf-Orc is not literal. Dumac was some kind of embodiment of Macalacath. He had to be. The entire ordeal at Red Mountain was a re-enactment of Shezarr getting his heart torn out. Trinimac had to be there, but since Trinimac was incapacitated at the time, his other (Malacath as Dumac) had tot take his place. Azura was there too, and Sheogorath. After all, both were born when Shezarr's heart was ripped out. I'm postulating Nerevar was Azura and Alandro Sulw as Sheogorath but...I could be wrong. Wulfharth was definitly Shor and Dumac was definitly Trinimac.

It was just an insult. It has been explained before.

By whom? I know no book that has stated that, and its not like whatever Prowler says is fact anyway. That's his opinion, and your opinion and probebly MK's opinion, but I don't have to agree with you.

I think MK said it... thought no one had the good grace to answer my question....

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=564683&view=findpost&p=8174588. Yeah, you don't have to agree with MK. But he wrote those Dumalacath and Dwarf-orc things and last time you argued that what he intended didn't matter in the interpretation we laughed you out of the thread. Rightly so, since it's kind of like saying you know Middle Earth better than Tolkien. (Not to say Elderscrolls and MK are like either of those, but, you know.)

Malacath is not Trinimac. The fact that your theory holds the original actors are necessary for the re-enactment strikes me as more than a little odd. But because I'm magnanimous, I'll readily concede you're right. There really was a re-enactment. But there is already http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?act=findpost&hl=&pid=8744549 for this and whether or not Trinimac even fits the dramatis personae is a question I've often wondered. Of the roles available to him, that of the shieldthane - a witness who goes blind, mad, or is maimed - is the only one to which he is suited, but he did neither, and was more than just a witness. At Red Mountain, that witness was represented by Alandro Sul.

> Final terminus before confused speculation commences! <

I've always believed that the disability comes from observing the mind-shattering reality of the universe, but something Duskweaver said struck me just now; the heart is always removed by a second party, or to quote him directly:The prime mover must work through an intermediary in his betrayal/murder of his twin/self. Maybe this can even be seen as a "funny how they're never in the same room together" sort of hint as to the nature of the Enantiomorph..

We don't hear of the witness to the confrontation between Akatosh and Lorkhan and we don't hear of the disability striking him, so what if Trinimac was always blind or mad, and it was necessary for him to be so in order to reach into his own boss's chest and pull out his heart? We also don't hear of the blind/maimed/mad witness in the Arcturian Heresy, but the intermediary does get deaded...

I think this might help your speculation. Trinimac could have lost faith in Akatosh when he realized who Akatosh/Lorkhan really were, much in same way Morihaus did with Pelinal. Which could be what Boethiah revealed to Trinimac's followers on that fateful day Malacath was "born".

Could it be we're trying too hard to make every conflict involve an Enantiomorph? Maybe Trinimac/Malacath wasn't involved in the events at Red Mountain. Though I'll admit my knowledge of the lore isn't as great as most people's on this forum.

Not it isn't. MK is the eqivlent of a host writer, while Todd Howard is the equivlent of Tolkien (right now anyway).

Tedders wrote just as much for the series (if not more), but you never give him props.
[sarcasm]
You seem to be taking sides, so I'll pretend to as well. I'll state right now that anything that Tedders wrote that contradicts something MK did is right and MK is wrong. So, since Orcs are just sentient goblins, and thus from another dimension, this whole debate is irrelevant. You're wrong, beacuse the TES ex-dev I chose to worship is always right and everyone else that puts their blood, sweat and tears into the series is wrong.
[/sarcasm]

Anyway, I find that notion really elitist, but whatever. Your utterly hypocritical nature isn't what this thread is about. If you want to debate that, you can email me.



That's funny, beacuse if I recall, I'm always the one trying to impress that point while the rest of you seem to deny it. As I said before, Malcath isn't Trinimac, but since the two indistinguishable (two halves of the same whole and all) Malcath has the potential to act as a placholder for Trinimac. Since Trinimac is inactive as long as Malcath is active, Malcath would be the only avalible actor for Red Mountain.



We have Dagoth Ur too, not to mention Nerevar, but I do agree that Alandro Sul was ONE OF the witnesses. Which brings me to my point:

Alandro Sul was a witness to Wulfharth's (Shor) heart being ripped out. If Dumac was in fact the perpetrator (it is hard to know due to the varying accounts) then Dumac->Malacath->Trinimac ripped out Wulfharth->Shor's heart. In the original incident there were many witnesses:
1) The Men->Wulfharth's Nordic armies in the re-enactment
2) The Elves->The armies of Chimer, Dwemer and Orcs in the re-enactment.
3)Sheogorath, who was "born" when Shor's heart was removed. This has been interpreted as meaning that the creation of free will upon the heart's impregnating of Nirn with divinity. Jyg/Sheogorath was the witness to this event. Alandro Sul->Arden Sul->Sheogorath in the re-enactment. He indeed go mad, or rather was already mad.
4) Azura, whose connection to Nirn is undeniable. It is likly she too was born when Nirn was. Nerevar was her champion, her representative on Nirn. Easily her representative in the re-enactment

I admit that Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal really don't fit well into this scheme, but seeing as they all gained divinity from the heart, it is likely that all four mortals represented their god-selves, who were likely present in the original event.



I don't agree with your interpretation of Red Mountain, but this is about the Talos situation, which I agree is a mythic antithetical re-enactment.

In regards to the Talos situation, I believe it pretty clear that Arctus was the witness. He was severely maimed.

Why is it at every odd post it's always followed by "MK?" was there some event associated with him/her that was odd/funny?

He's a dev, Micheal Kirkbride. Wrote allot of Elder Scrolls related stuff both in and outside of the game, still does actually.

MK is Michael Kirkbride, one of the writers for some of the books for the TES series.

I brought him up because I thought I remember seeing a post of his that explained his name, which he did. I foudnt it like 30 minutes ago, but I forgot where it is now.

He said something along the lines of it being an "Yo Momma" joke only appearing in anti-Dwemer books, which is supported by the relevant posts in this thread.

Bah, sophistry. Ack, no-wonder you're seeing Malacath everywhere.



Nordic race-hate. Demonize (almost literally in this case) your ancestral enemies. The Nords also call the Dunmer 'Devils' in their Five Songs of King Wulfharth.

When Todd does something more than hold a whip, then I'll start acknowledging his writing abilities and world-building skills.

Would you like some bread with that whine? There's a reason MK is mentioned more than Tedders, and that's because adventures and romances just don't hold all that much lore. History does, but there's usually less interpretation needed for sources in the guise of academic papers, those typically being interpretations themselves of already extant primary sources. This is no slight on Tedders, but he gives us less to talk about, despite his immense contribution. By his own confession, he does not go in for metaphysics, which is where my interest lies and on which subject most of the meaty debates take place.

So, yes you can worship any dev you like. Even Pete Hines. But it has no bearing on this discussion.

However, that doesn't mean you can lie outright and then have the gall to call me a hypocrite soon after. The orcs have never been "sentient goblins", not the least because goblins are already sentient. The Orc's origins exact origins have never been given outside of the Malacath episode, though this has been called into question due to accounts of orcs existing prior to the accepted date of conversion (in Oblivion, it should be noted, not Daggerfall). But no goblorigin and no competing theory has been expressed.


I don't reject the term elitist, since I graciously concede that I probably have higher standards than you. But it's not elitist to ask just what a writer meant by something and accept that as what it means, instead of trying to grasp some higher truth in the tea leaves that was never intended.


Whoa, if you're always saying they're not the same, (waving around that "rest-of-you" allegation like a floppy gun) why are you now saying they're indistinguishable? A bad smell and green skin says they're quite distinct. Note, I'm not a Gortwogian radical. I just believe that the change from Trinimac and Malacath was so huge, that for all intents and purposes, they shouldn't be considered the same. And clearly, everyone else (Tamriel-wise thought the same thing, considering his current status.


Fair point about the different witnesses, as it's one of the reasons there are so many variations of the same myth. But I still disagree that Dumac has any relation to Malacath. Firstly because we're told he doesn't, which is simple enough. Second because Trinimac being dead doesn't stop his name being used to infer a reenactment to which Malacath has no mythical ties, and for which he clearly isn't suited as an understudy.