OK, I think this is getting quite out of hand here, and everyone needs to back off and calm down.

For my part, I often outright disagree with what MK says, even about his own creations, preferring instead other explanations for the way things are in Morrowind. This is the same as disagreeing with George Lucas over Star Wars lore - even though he made a huge and well-developed universe doesn't make him immune to defying its own internal logic. Although, to be fair, MK never invented Jar Jar Binks.

Personally I think the Dwemer simply zapped themselves out of existence. As far as 'failed experiments' go, that's pretty dramatic.

Hmm... sick of defending a valid theory. Well, that's how theories go. If you propose the theory, it's up to you to present the evidence, and defend it.

For instance, I have a theory that the Ayleids are coming back. I base this on the fact that they left the water running in a few of their ruins, and the turned the security systems on before they left. Why turn on the security if you don't plan on coming back?

Anyway, for the sake of argument, it is entirely possible that in some future game, the Dwemer will return. How? I don't know, I'm not a writer so I'm simply not that creative, but they wrote the Dwemer out of existance, it's only a few flicks of the wrist to write them back in. As such, all arguments seem to be capable of being valid. The simple problem here is that most of the evidence we have concerning the disapearance of the Dwemer is anecdotal, which is simply unreliable, even when coming from a God, or from the last remaining Dwemer. The Dwemer were many, then all of a sudden, they were all but gone. They haven't been back, and nobody has heard anything new about them. A reasonable person would simply accept these facts as truth, and determine that they're gone and won't be comin' back no more no more.

Yet, the fact that there IS one Dwemer remaining allows for the possibility of more Dwemer remaining, somewhere, perhaps EVEN in a large colony. Of course, there's no evidence for such a proposition, so anyone who claims that this is the case is likely to have their theory torn to shreds.

So, basically what I am saying is, theorizing about lost colony's of Dwemer is kind of like theorizing about Alien Abductions, Monsters, Ghosts, Gods, Demons, Unicorns, Bigfeet, Tasty Vegen Food. There's lots of personal accounts, but where's the beef? If you have a theory, you'll simply need to present real evidence. To answer the OP's question, no, there's no historical evidence that there's a possible lost colony. While that doesn't mean that there isn't one, a reasonable person would assume that this is the case, based on the fact that for all their searching, no evidence has been found.

On a side note, it's cool to see some old-heads in here. Everyone in Oblivion forums seems to have joined within the last 6 months. And they can't spell, and I don't mean in the typo swnse, I mean in the ratardid cents.

The theory has been posted four pages ago, right http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=836518&view=findpost&p=12165744, with evidence, quotes and confirmations. Before and after that, many posts have given additional information to said theory. I call the theory soundly backed on the lore we have at hand on this topic. So much for presenting evidence and defending it.
I will not accept "I think it's not like that" or "I disagree" as valid challenges to the theory. As I said, for a theory to be challenged the challenger must also provide a basis for his reasoning. That's all I ask. Nothing more, but certainly not less either.

In general, when I propose theories, I try to back them up as good as I can with actual lore and put alot of work and thought in it. I expect the same of those who challenge these theories. (And the Dwemer theory isn't even mine, but has been discussed by a lot of people, in this forums and in various chats, props to them). Before someone shouts "elitist" at me, no, I'm not an elitist, I just have high standards. I remember times when this policy - that of soundly backed theories or even opinions - were very common on this forum. Sadly, those times seem to be past.

With that I follow Albides' lead and be done here. On my part, what needed to be said was said.

Well, I actually find that theory to be the most likely, there being corroboration from several documented sources. It's the theory that there's a lost colony of Dwemer who may one day return that I am arguing against. However, I do stand by my statement that a theory should be defended by the person proposing it, or in your cases, putting yourself out there to defend it. Granted, it becomes difficult when the opponent delights in the use of logical fallacy, but rather than argue the theory at that point, simply point out the error in logic. Circular reasoning, slippery slope, strawman, ad hoc, whatever, point it out, explain how it has no place in scientific debate, and be done with them. It's far more civil, and can't be argued, at least not logically.

And yeah, these forums have changed over the last five years, certainly. Or maybe I've just grown older.

Most awesome race ever! Sorry just had to say that.

Well, they had this little problem about hating themselves, each other, everyone else, and the whole observable universe, and being totally preoccupied with finding ways to prove that none of it was real....


ended up with them going "Poof" in a rather enigmatic manner.

I've been reading with interest, since I also find the Dwemer so intriguing.

I don't have strong feelings about the theory under review, but I have one or so comment and question.

I think there's a lot of wiggle room in interpretting "sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body". I can read everything from the literal "souls are the base material of Anumidum" to "many Egyptians deaths while working on pyramids." Or something like "Dwemer souls were like the fuse that detonated the explosion of Padomay that resulted in the Divine Skin." And I think that's the start of the basic counter-"theory" (i.e., too literal an interpretation of "sacrifice->becoming->skin").

The other question has to do with the relationship of the Dwemer-souls "skin OF Anumidum" vs. the "Divine Skin = Prime Gestalt = Brass God IS Anumidum". Am I seeing a distinction that isn't there? Seems like the souls becoming the skin, and Anumidum being the Divine Skin, are two distinct concepts - possibly getting a bit mixed up with each other?

I'm probably forgetting some Lore 101. Just curious about others' thoughts. Thanks!

Well, the word that accompanied this theory, coined by MK, was "absorbicide", which makes it sound very much like their souls are now a part of the Anumidum. Then there's the fact that it's called a "gestalt, a funny word that means, roughly, an amalgam greater than the sum of its parts. Then there's also the continuing theme of just this sort unification in the Elder Scrolls, exemplified by the Tower, by CHIM, and, in the metaphysical sense, by the universe itself, by cities, by man, as the "flowering scheme of the Aurbis" as one text puts it.


Eh. Prowleer mentioned this. The text says the Dwemer became the body of Anumidum, which in turn is sometimes called "The Divine Skin". In light of the above, I don't think this is much of an issue.

Personally, I think it's pretty cut and dry. Especially now that it has been confirmed by MK himself.

The only reason there is still such heated debate over this is the fact that a large contingent of TES fans don't like this concept. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less true, people. Let it go.

Actually, if I were a Dev, I'd say they zapped themselves into a plane of Oblivion within Oblivion within yet another layer of Oblivion, waiting for some odd thing to happen that'll release them back into the world of Nirn as a giant being of incredible power.

Of course, it'll probably be ES 10, and star Vin Desel, who'll get the assignment from Sheograth to take down this monster with nothing more than the Teacup of Horripilation. bliviongate:

I see what you're saying about "absorbicide" (although I don't like the term) and "gestalt" (which makes more intutitive sense to me for the soul-skin argument). I don't think the Prime Gestalt necessarily requires the souls as a component (physical body, Lorkham's heart, Is-Not, etc.), but yeah - it does fit. Maybe the anti-creation of the Dwemer accessed the Padomay, which "activated" or "finalized" Anumidum? Maybe that's what everyone's been saying all along, and "skin" is more metaphorical than literal?


This is exactly the kind of answer I was seeking. I'll putt around looking for this theme - which would go a long was towards convincing me (official lore-wise).


I must have missed Prowleer's comment - I'll backtrack. [True enough! I probably stole it - All Credit to Proweler!!] Which specific text did you mean here? "Became the body," I mean.

P.S. Yagrum speculation:
"I think Kagrenac might have succeeded in granting our race eternal life, with unforeseen consequences -- such as wholesale displacement to an Outer Realm. Or he may have erred, and utterly destroyed our race."
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Dwemer#References

I wasn't particularly thrilled with Yagrum's existence in Morrowind, so I'm definitely in the "completely and ultimately gone" camp.

Well. They are not utterly gone, becuase there is still one left!

Well, one that's still alive, at least.

I am pretty sure that those disenfranchised dwemer ghosts would be less aggressive toward somebody intent on helping them rebuild their ruins and culture.

The reason the ghosts are vengeful, is because they lament. Personally, I would at least attempt to strike a bargain with them, to get one of their cities up and running again. The problem would be keeping those damn imperials out.

I'm late to the thread but... The theory is quite clear and makes plenty of sense, while also being eloquent. Most agreeable! So I'm not entirely sure why it seems appealing to refute it, except on the personal bias of what one thinks ought to have happened to them.

-

Anyway, this has likely been said or suggested in different wording, but here are some things to consider as I have thought. If I have interpreted the possibilities correctly, by altering the harmony of the heart they practically allowed their unbeing, or coalescence into singularity. Being like a completion of all elements that make up the mundus ("fifteen-and-one golden tones") they basically disappeared in a sudden spark of unity - thus this extremely energetic state could potentially leave ashes from the superheating, or completely dissolve their form. That said, there are no reports of heat or any such related senses with their disappearance that I'm aware of, besides from them vanishing. It's possible that the harmony of allbeing or unbeing negates such material side effects, allowing pure transmutation. The only remains of ashes I have heard of are in select ruins, and not through any recording, but that still poses a questioning to this idea. Perhaps these are the remains of those who could not entirely join in? A result of disharmony, amongst themselves or by the method used in the tones? Disharmony effecting potential for transmutation may also reflect upon why ghosts did not merge (their minds, or tone/harmony was too different) and also Yagrum Bagarn (perhaps having an altered state/tone by travelling in the outer realms). Eitherway this also suggests the possibility that some dwemer were successful in their transcendence, whilst others were not. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I'm not of the genius scholarly mindset as some here but I do know of some of the general facts of the matter.

The Dwemer were here....and now they're not.
In some ruins, there are Dwemer specters around.
There is one Dwemer still alive and ticking deep in the bowels of Fyr's Corpusarium.

So from these, i can form a few simple conclusions at least.

Some could say the specters had died before whatever happened to the Dwemer happened. But then my argument would be if the event was divine in nature, couldn't if have affected each and every Dwemer soul in all of existence? Which would include the specters trapped in this world and poor Yagrum wherever he happened to be?

So whatever happend must have been either selective in nature or something in the natural world that couldn't affect the Dwemer in other realms or their spirits that were still around.

Interesting stuff though everyone...sorry if my contributions were simple and/or wrong......

Yes,I agree I have also posted;similiar thoughts as to them not being destoyed.Or just going to another realm.

After reading this personally, I have came to a conclusion, that they all died of a massive lorkhan heart attack

Could it be possible that Yagrum was not fully Dwemer? Thus being the exception to being erased from the mortal realm?

There are other occurrences in the game where races intermix and a half race is created. And I believe that these are so rare because in normal births, even between different races, the child takes on the race of the mother but I have no idea where I got that information I would have to hunt for it.

He basically explained why he isn't "gone:" he was in an Outer Realm. There is no lore talking about him been of mixed descent.

Also, I've seen ideas floating around that state that he was supposed to be the one to push the "on button" to Anumidum. While I haven't looked a great deal into it, it makes a bit of sense.

But my case was that if whatever happened was divine in nature, it would have affected every Dwemer in all of existence. So it must have been something natural in nature or else Yagrum and the specters would have been affected along with the Dwemer who did vanish, yanno?

I doubt the dissappearance of an entire race could be natural...in any way. While I'm not an expert in the subject, I don't think it was divine in the sense of divine intervention by a god.

This is what happens when we don't read the thread. <_<

There may be another game about the dwemer- if perhaps, they are still in Nirn. Even if they are not in Nirn, there still may be another game on it. Though, on the other hand, if they do make a game about the dwemer, it probably won't be as interesting as Morrowind and Redguard(though I've never played redguard).
There are also the Akavir and the Maormer, to add to the list of living mysteries

Oh, *ehem* Theres only one theory, that I know of, that states that they died. Though most say that they are in a different realm, plus they've been gone for 2000 years(if I remember correctly) so they may have died in their new home. One story says that Azura cast them into Oblivion. They have a very large chance of being dead, if they have gone to Oblivion.

But who cares about the past? the new ES players don't, so odds are there will not be anything else on the dwemer, to look at it half empty

...and neither do the devs!