I agree, I doubt that there'd be any ghosts left over, because it would be silly if only the souls of those who have bodies would be taken. And almost every ruin is haunted.

True but if he could be in an Outer Realm why wouldn't there be other Dwemer to disagreed with the rest of the Dwemer people's insane ambition to transcend mortality that also escaped to an Outer Realm. If that's the case then its very likely that there are other Dwemer who still exist even if its a small portion of them.

I have to agree with the book that Orzorn found. That seems to be the lore that has been inputed into the Elder Scrolls series.

As for the Spectres, I think I might be able to explain (maybe). :shrug:

Yagrum stated that he was in an Outer Realm during the even, which would mean that the Dwemer's "disapperance" would have only occured in the single realm of Mundus. So, if the Dwarwen Spectres are dead, then do they still reside in the plane of Mundus, or are they residents of another realm, a realm of limbo, who happen to have a physical tie to Mundus through the spectral substance ectoplasm? If that was the case, then that would be why they did not disappear.

A way to describe such a connection simply would be to compare it to a holograph or a phone call or a video chat. Although the person, in this case spirit, resides somewhere far away, they are able to use a medium to manifest themselves in the physical realm of Mundus. This allows them to communicate, manipulate, and see what is occuring in that foreign location, even though they are technically not present.

Also, that would mean when you "destroy" the Dwarven Spectres, you are simply severing their tie to the mortal realm. You are not physically hurting them.

Another explanation of the Dwarven Spectres could be that they are not really Dwarven spirits. Rather they are the collective pools of energy and emotion that have been given a physical form, caused by the collective magical essences that have eminated from the Dwemer over a period of hundreds or thousands of years. The magical medium could very well be ectoplasm. Or the ectoplam could just very well be a seperate substance that has absorbed the energy and emotion creating false Dwemer. Either way, they would simply just be false images and imprints left by the Dwemer that have been given physical form. They are hollow; empty. They are devoid of the qualities that would make them actual spirits or Dwemer.

This is all just pure speculation and may be entirely false. That is up to what you people think.

Or maybe it didn't work on dead people.

Lorekeeper's idea is far better explained than just "it didn't work on dead people", actually, it agrees with that comment, because of the implied implications of those who are dead.

Well, I'm not going to bother you all too much. Facts side heavily with the theory (scientific-type theory, not crackpot-type, as was mentioned before) that the Dwemer tried to put their souls into this thing, and they can't come back. It makes perfect sense given everything, so why not, instead of stubbornly shouting "no" at it in the hopes it will change, try to perfect it? Or refute it using fact.

Let's try both.

First, in the case for absorbicide (really don't like how that sounds; suicide is killing the self, absorbicide is killing absorption, no?):



Obviously anything I could offer for this would be mere conjecture, but I'd like to invite everyone to speculate on who the "they" is referring to. The sentences preceding it just list other people who witnessed the Dragon Break, so I doubt it means them. Divayth Fyr seems intent on helping Yagrum remember, so it probably isn't him. This would leave one obvious, but seemingly impossible answer.



This seems to imply that the Dwarves are not extinct. Perhaps I'm putting too much importance on the 'really' of the last sentence and my interpretation. Also note that every other time 'Big Walker' has been used 'successfully,' a Dragon Break took place. Of course, the Dwemer had quite a different purpose, but many believe one happened at Red Mountain then, maybe implying that the plan went as expected.



So if the original plan was to bring all the King's horses and all the King's men to put the Dwemer together again, making from their collective souls a god from which they believed (presumably) they were descended, and this did in fact take place without a hitch, what's the deal with Yagrum? In Divayth Fyr's words:



Well, maybe along with a flood of other things, he's remembering why he was the only Dwemer in an outer realm that was immune from the effects of this giant robot. I don't doubt that some other Dwemer were in outer realms, but they disappeared. Perhaps a special one was created, so that he could 'turn on the robot,' an idea that's come up in this very thread. I guess you'd need the tools to activate the thing, though. Fyr goes on to say:



Now, this is just me, but it seems like an awful load of coincidence that Yagrum was left behind, presumably to turn the thing on, and then upon remembering things, STILL wants the tools. Maybe to study them, but maybe, just maybe, he remembers what really happened to the Dwarves, and they/it are waiting for him to act. Vivec wouldn't sense many Dwemer, because there is nothing akin to Dwemer left in the world; they're something else. Baladas Demnevanni described them as hiding behind math. That might not be far from the truth. Maybe beyond math is more like it.

Also consider that Dagoth Ur, after this went down, who was supposedly the smartest of all of them, and knew what the Dwemer were doing, was adamant about destroying the tools. He wasn't tempted by godhood even a little, until the Tribunal made away with them and he connected to the heart by himself. He didn't need the tools for his divinity, and he wanted them still. Maybe, even in Morrowind (the game), he was acting for good, trying to prevent for once and for all the Dwemer's plans.

I have some questions, though. Say the above fits. I know much is not based in fact, but is filling in some gaps. Now, if Yagrum did whatever the hell he was originally meant to do, what would even happen? Could the Dwemer oversoul have persisted despite Anumidum being destroyed and rebuilt a few times? Wouldn't it take all of Tamriel's souls together to re-make the Dawn? To me, the Dwemer can never come back, because the Nerevarine left with the tools. Even if Yagrum got them, he would just become part of whatever the rest of the Dwemer are.

Word Merchant: Your Landfall theory... If indeed all of Nirn's souls are needed to re-create the Dawn, and the Dwemer did eventually succeed, then it would make sense that other cultures could become advanced enough to try the same, albeit using other means. Landfall would be the rest of Nirn's failed attempt (so still no Dwemer, since they did it the right way, and are yet further down the line). Success would put everyone in the original place, putting an I in the Tower, that is literally ALL WE. Correct?

This is far out there, but if the Dwemer imitate an act meant to achieve the Godhead, and they did it with only a race instead of all races, isn't that still mythopoeia that would grant them at least a taste? It is immitating an act which has not yet happened, or is reversing an act, so..? Questions abound.

And now for a boring refutation of this whole thread.





The Tribunal used the heart to change history, so now everyone is living in a world where the Dwemer really were killed by the Tribunal. So, they're not alive.

In fact...



...it wasn't even meant to achieve anything other than destruction in the current timeline.

Obviously I don't like this view, and I personally think the two timelines merged, meaning they are both a little true.


So there you have it.

Either:
a ) The Dwemer tried to join their souls together, failed, and are dead/don't exist.
b ) The Dwemer succeeded, and aren't the Dwemer anymore because they're the robot, or in the robot, whatever, and waiting to be 'turned on'. If only we can get another Nord/Orc/Dunmer/? four-way going, the Dwemer might get turned on. Imagine Anumidum's 'muatra,' and shudder.
c ) They got the **** kicked out of them by Almsivi, who were always gods. They're dead.

No matter how you look at it, they can't come back in a future game, unless that future game involves concentrating superhard on a magic-eye until you see an 'I' and become the Godhead. That game would svck harder than Azura at a trial. <----See what I did there?

You make an interesting point. That would be an interesting explanation of the disappearance of the dwarves and why Yagrum did not fade away as well. Perhaps because that Yagrum had alot to do with the creation and usage of the tools, Kagrenac may have given him the heavy task as acting as a sentinel, or protector, of the tools, but for what reason? As to that, I am unsure. Perhaps they wanted to return in the end, and Yagrum knew how to bring them back.
Maybe he was just there to keep anybody from following the same path as the Dwemer. Either way, in order to keep him from exiting existence, perhaps an outer realm was created from the heart of Lorhkan which is where Yagrum stayed.

Or, another possibility could be that perhaps that Yagrum was in another realm and the fact that he did not disappear simply was an unfortunate coincidence.
He probably knew at some point that the Dwemer were going to "disappear", maybe he didn't know they would do it so soon. This could mean that he isupset that Nerevar has the tools because he want(s)(ed) to join his Dwemer brothers and share in their fate as some part of their "divine plan".

As good as an explanation as it is, Alcuin, it doesn't sound like it explains why there are Dwemer Spectres, as well as the fact that there is (maybe even are) a sentient Spectre who has full conciousness. I've already stated my ideas earlier.

my issue with Yagrum as someone who influenced the disappearance of the dwemer, is that if you talk to him, he says that when he came back from this "outer realm," he searched for other Dwemer with no luck. So that would lead me to believe he wasn't expecting whatever happened to the them to happen while he was gone.

But remember, Yagrum lost much of his memory due to the corprus. He may remember just searching for them, but not the reason why. Or, he may just be misinterpreting his old actions, in which he was not searching at all, but maybe attempting something...Either way, his memory is flawed and that leaves room for speculation.

Yes, I read and enjoyed that explanation, Loreseeker, and find it compatible. Souls and spirits are quite different, in my own strange understanding of things.

Assume, for instance, that those beings in the Cavern of the Incarnate are what they say they are. Well, each of them had Nerevar's soul. Why should they each have a spirit, too? I take it that a fraction of the Godhead is in every sentient thing on Mundus. It is paired with a body at birth (or at conception, but whattaya gonna do?). After the body expires, the soul suffers from amnesia and is returned to the dreamsleeve, to be put into a new body*. The spirit is a lingering shadow of that certain combination of soul and body, a sort of memory if you will, that can either stay in Mundus or go to an outer realm.

This outer realm is the one from which the Dunmer summon their ancestors, and to which I believe all spirits go. Your theory fits well into this; the Dwemer spirits were there, and obviously had no 'soul value,' so they were not put into the Anumidum. Their souls had already returned to the dreamsleeve. In fact, Yagrum might have actually been in this place, since he would have been perceived as dead by whatever magical detection preceded the soul-combining.

I can't really think of another explanation that would allow for summoning and a dreamsleeve, and this one fits with everything I've heard so far, so I go with it. Thoughts?

*Azura must have 'reserved' Nerevar's soul, which involved countermanning the very nature of death; that would explain why it took so much of her power just to curse the Chimer and do this one thing.

More explained it may be, but at it has no basis in known lore, it has little more weight than the other.
And if there is any evidence, Loreseeker would be most welcome to show it.

Oh, and I was going to write my own thoughts here as well, but while writing something on another forum, the core of my reasoning seems to have abandoned me.. I will wait for it to come back, and post again :foodndrink:

true, no disagreements there. sort of like talking to an Alzheimer's patient. Can remember the names of every dog he ever had and about the time he got sprayed but a skunk, but his former wives name, no dice......

So Yargrum just may have a selective memory then thanks to the Corpus. But I wouldn't say his mind is gone as he managed to write a book about the lost artifacts in vvardenfel.

Alas...it all but pure speculation that has been written in thought and reason. I have no proof. It's all circumstantial. But what can you do?

Oh, and thanks for the feedback Alcuin. Glad you liked it. However, I have one tiny issue I'm curious about.



Well...everything you gave had a good point. However, I don't think they had Nerevar's soul. Remember, they state their names when you meet them, and they state that they were called, but they were not the one.

Also, Masea, the wise woman of the Ashlander tribe Urshilaku, says told the player that he/she was not the Nerevarine, but he/she could become it. This implies that rather than the Nerevarine being a reincarnation, it is actually a role that the character grows into. A name given to Azura's champion modeled after her former, Indoril Nerevar, after going through the trials and quests that he went through ages ago.

If I quote the guide, it says "Basically, she's Yoda, and she just told you that you might be Luke Skywalker".

Or maybe Nerevar's soul is something you inherit. Or...if I was to go the cheesey route, I could say that there's a little Nerevar in everyone. lol


But anyway, I'm done. I'm deviating from the thread.

Alright, you've got me there. Perhaps in the next game, he will remember more information which can become another book.

Regardless, I'm really hoping that Bethesda will throw us a bone here and give us some info. But then again, why spoil the universe's biggest mystery? :shrug:

I love little lore nuggets that get sprinkled into games. Maybe TES V....maybe...hopefully, lol. And they don't even have to spoil it. Heck, they could make it even MORE confusing and complicated just to give something to talk about for the following 4 years between games, lol

The bone has been thrown ages ago now and it's been quoted in the thread. Since I know that people won't go and just look at said quote, which is contained in post http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=836518&view=findpost&p=12165744, I will just quote it http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=836518&view=findpost&p=12165744 again and because clicking is so hard here's the quote in writing:


Allerleirauh's argument refers to the quoted paragraph from Xal. MK was a developer of Morrowind (yes, apparently that needs to be mentioned these times, which is quite saddening) and the guy who played Xal in the interview (and in the Xal-Gosleigh-Letters).

Good job. Too bad it probably won't quell the discussion...

Vivec was right about Dwemer turning to ash. If you played Tribunal, and explored the Dwemer ruin underneath Mournhold (I think it was called Bamz-Amschend but I am not sure), you can see dwemer weaponry lying around and a pile of ash next to every single weapon.

This is what I've considered as well. The Dunmer are skilled battlemages, but I doubt they'd have the power or stealth to turn Dwemer to ash even as they sat on their stools in workshops or stood guard. There was no evidence of a fight in the ruin, yet ash piles remain where the Dwemer once were. Although at the time the Dunmer were Chimer.

In my eye's the Dwemer are simple "writers ammo" at this point. Basically reserved as a possible plot point in a future TES game.

Nalion, read that thing you quoted again.

Does it suggest the Dwemer are dead? I didn't get that. It just says definitively that they were put into the Anumidum. Unless I'm missing what's right in front of my eyes. MK doesn't confirm that they didn't succeed, he just confirms what they tried to do.

Isn't there still room for discussion, then?

That's one thing I've been thinking about regarding the ash-piles in Bamz-Amschend... It's been quite awhile since I've played through Tribunal and I quite can't remember what was said exactly about the ruin, but from what I remember it was relatively unexplored. One thing I remember seeing brought up was questions about why there weren't any ash-piles in the Vvardenfell ruins.

Obvious game asset reasons aside: one reasonable explanation could be that the Vvardenfell ruins were more explored than Bamz-Aschend. How many of them had bandits, could have been explored by the Mages Guild and other scholars, other movement (vampires, the aimless wanderings of the centurions, explorers looking for artifacts) simply displacing the ash-piles so they're nothing more than a thin layer of dust on the floor? The ruins under Mournhold just simply haven't been disturbed as much as the others.

Not really much, but whatevs...

The only ruin on Vvardenfell that'd be undisturbed would be Mudan Vault, and that wouldn't have any Dwemer in it anyway.

well, you would have noticed that I did use the qualifiers "relatively" and "as much as" as well as saying that I haven't played through Tribunal in quite awhile (roughly... 3 years).

Not trying to be an a-hole; but hey, I'm drunk and I couldn't give a flying [censored] at a rolling donut at the moment.


EDIT: My current "status change" led to a slight, misreading, but hey, my point still stands, Bamz-Aschend was on the mainland under Mournhold all but forgotten, while most of the ruins on Vvardenfell would have been explored and disturbed.

It's kinda one of those things you don't come back from. Being dead or alive is irrelevant in the state they are in. And actually MK confirms that they succeeded in becoming part of the Numidium.

As for discussion, it depends on what you want to discuss.