Dwemer : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:28 pm

I might not be as informed on Elder Scrolls lore, but is there any chance based on historical records that members of the Dwemer race could have survived, perhaps on a small secluded Island or something?

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:42 pm

There's one surviving dwemer in Vvardenfell...

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:23 am

I might not be as informed on Elder Scrolls lore, but is there any chance based on historical records that members of the Dwemer race could have survived, perhaps on a small secluded Island or something?

There is nothing saying they didn't survive.

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:04 am

So the discovery of a Dwemer colony in future games isnt totally out of the question?

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:01 pm

There is nothing saying they didn't survive.

Nothing except the witnesses acounts.
And The last Dwemer also says that he searched the entire world and found no trace of any other Dwemer.
And Vivec, who is a [censored] god, says he does not sense them in the timeless world and that he saw them all turn to dust.

But if you disregard those things they might have survived.

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:25 pm

Bah, where's that text that says the Dwemer were turned into the golden skin of Numidium?

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/luagararticle1.shtml While it is just a study, I believe what it says.

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:31 am

Nothing except the witnesses acounts.
And The last Dwemer also says that he searched the entire world and found no trace of any other Dwemer.
And Vivec, who is a [censored] god, says he does not sense them in the timeless world and that he saw them all turn to dust.

But if you disregard those things they might have survived.

Just because they are not on Nirn, and cannot be sensed by a god does not mean they are dead. Neither does seeing them turn to dust.

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:13 pm

Just because they are not on Nirn, and cannot be sensed by a god does not mean they are dead. Neither does seeing them turn to dust.

But there sure aren't any left. We don't know what happened to them (although there are a few theories), but they aren't around anymore.

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:06 am

Im not sure if it would even fit into the historical documents, but I am thinking it would be really interesting to see the Dwemer in some deep underground location like an ancient dwarven hall. Perhaps such a group of Dwemer would have survived and gone unnoticed because they went to such great lengths to stay hidden for fear of being destroyed. Perhaps some kind of magick obfuscates them from others such as Vivec (Who was actually a mortal who attained divine status).

Again, I dont know the lore well enough to say if this would fit the history or not, but I think it would be interesting.

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:23 pm

But there sure aren't any left. We don't know what happened to them (although there are a few theories), but they aren't around anymore.

Certainly. I'm not denying that, it is, in fact; my entire point. All I'm saying is: there is no proof that they are dead - ergo, they could have survived.

Red-Right-Hand seems to have a differing oppinion however, so I suppose it's all in how you weigh the evidence. If them not being around and Vivec's word that they turned to dust = dead to you, then they are
/Rant.

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:15 am

Certainly. I'm not denying that, it is, in fact; my entire point. All I'm saying is: there is no proof that they are dead - ergo, they could have survived.

Red-Right-Hand seems to have a differing oppinion however, so I suppose it's all in how you weigh the evidence. If them not being around and Vivec's word that they turned to dust = dead to you, then they are
/Rant.

Survived in what sense of the word? They certainly did not survive in body, as evidenced by all the dust surrounded by weapons and armor. To me, they are dead in every sense of the word. If they did go anywhere, it was in spirit only. And In my opinion, they created the golden skin of Numidium. Racial absorbaside, as some on these forums have said.

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:16 am

Personally, I think that they obliterated themselves to 'somewhere'. (And the 'skin of the Brass God' theory is interesting. I had never thought or rad of that before)

As far as a mod is concerned, go ahead. It was be consistent with true lore, but it also won't be Nukes and M60's in Tamriel.
As far as official TES lore and future games, I doubt we'll ever see the Dwemer again. If they did come out with an official stance in a future game, it would completely destroy all the thought, debate, and fun into the mystery of their disappearance. That's what it's supposed to be. A mystery, because we don't know.

~TK.R

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:05 pm

Survived in what sense of the word? They certainly did not survive in body, as evidenced by all the dust surrounded by weapons and armor. To me, they are dead in every sense of the word. If they did go anywhere, it was in spirit only. And In my opinion, they created the golden skin of Numidium. Racial absorbaside, as some on these forums have said.

Alive = Survived.

So dust in place of flesh means they are dead? How do you know that the dust is not residue from some massive transportation majumbo?

Point being, no evidence they are dead. No evidence their beodies are destroyed. No evidence a nothin'.

And I think that's sort of the point. Wouldn't be any mystery otherside eh?

Dagnabbit! It seems me and TK.R think alike

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:13 pm

Alive = Survived.

So dust in place of flesh means they are dead? How do you know that the dust is not residue from some massive transportation majumbo?

Point being, no evidence they are dead. No evidence their beodies are destroyed. No evidence a nothin'.

And I think that's sort of the point. Wouldn't be any mystery otherside eh?

Dagnabbit! It seems me and TK.R think alike

Dust is definitely evidence of total bodily destruction.
If they teleported, then they certainly forgot to bring their weapons and armor. Teleporting has to be the most ridiculous theory out of them all. It totally looks to shallowly at what the Dwemer were trying to do. Teleportation is easy cheese, they did it all the time; traveling to outside the Mundus like Yagrum did. They wished to reach the "first brush of Anu and Padomay", to return to their beginnings.
Vivec can not detect their presence, neither here nor in Oblivion.

With this information, I can firmly believe that they all died.

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:50 pm

Point being, no evidence they are dead. No evidence their beodies are destroyed. No evidence a nothin'.

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding between evidence and proof here.

So, we have the complete disappearance of the Dwemer not only in Morrowind but also in Hammerfell. We have piles of dust amidst heaps of armour and weapons. We have piles of dust underneath bedsprings, the mattresses of which have long since rotted away. We have Vivec saying that he has no feel for them in the timeless time outside the mortal realm, and it's his intuition that they're gone forever, and we have Yagrum saying he searched for years, to no avail. We also have various texts saying they tried to deconstruct their own existence, which kind of should of tipped you off.

Just what are you expecting, an answering machine message saying "there's nobody home to take your call"?

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:37 pm

Just what are you expecting, an answering machine message saying "there's nobody home to take your call"?

"No one is available to take your call, we will be back 3000 years ago, please leave a message after the tonal music heart-echo."

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:24 am

Yeah,I kinda think they will be back.These guys and gals were smart.So they did what they had to do I have said it before and I'll say it again I don't think we've seen the last of these critters.

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:26 pm

Yeah,I kinda think they will be back.These guys and gals were smart.So they did what they had to do I have said it before and I'll say it again I don't think we've seen the last of these critters.

They were also fanatic, and pushed into something extremely dangerous and not prepared by circumstances. We have seen the last of the Dwemer. They screwed up and destroyed their race.

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:50 am

They were also fanatic, and pushed into something extremely dangerous and not prepared by circumstances. We have seen the last of the Dwemer. They screwed up and destroyed their race.

The Mundus is unforgiving. They indeed are not coming back.

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:58 am

Yeah,I kinda think they will be back.These guys and gals were smart.So they did what they had to do I have said it before and I'll say it again I don't think we've seen the last of these critters.

We already had a game about the Dwemer. Two, if you consider Redguard's sideplot. Which also makes two games featuring the two only known locations of Dwemer settlement; Hammerfall and Morrowind. The day they're brought back from the beyond won't be a time to rejoice. It would be a greedy attempt to appeal to the memory of beloved but dead issues.

Besides, we still have the Falmer, we've barely scratched the surface of the Ayleids, Altmer and Bosmer history is sketchy at best and Argonians are living mysteries, forget the missing ones.

Their return is especially unlikely if the widely believed idea that they became the skin of the Numidium is true. And seeing as it's the one idea that's thematically consistent with the lore (i.e, the nature of the endeavour, overcoming dualities, the architecture of towers) I see no reason not to disbelieve it.

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:42 am

I wonder if the ghost in Mournhold could spill any secrets, he seems sentient enough.

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:35 am

The Dwemer combined their souls into one pseudo-Oversoul, which became the skin of the Numidium as shown in the diagram of http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/divine_metaphysics.shtml. Yagrum Bagarn was in an "Outer Realm" so that his soul would not become a part of the Numidium during this "joining". Why, you may ask? With all the Dwemer a part of the Numidium, someone would still be needed to operate the Tools and focus the energy into the Numidium as shown in the diagrams of http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/egg_of_time.shtml.

Because The Egg of Time mainly discusses what happens when mistakes are made during the "Sundering" of the "Egg of Time", it seems that the Dwemer were destroyed by the process. Whether "destruction" is what they wanted, however, remains to be seen.

As for what happens to Sundered Eggs, http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/tsaesci.shtml states that they either turn into new eggs (i.e., universes of their own) or "calculation powder" when something goes awry. Since the Dwemer left behind "ashes piles", I would conclude that their Sundering went awry.

___The Word Merchant of Julianos

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:49 pm

I always believed they completely un-created themselves. There is absolutely nothing in existence that was once them, except for their creations.

» Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:41 am

"Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis:
Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.

The first to see him was the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal architects [Mechanists - MN] Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater. Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they were removed from this world."
- http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/skelm.shtml

"A Dwemer child of eight can create a golem," he explained. "But only a truly great warrior and armorer can pretend to be one."
[...]
"In a rare scholarly moment, Marobar Sul leaves a few pieces of the original story intact, such as parts of the original line in Aldmeris, "A Dwemer of eight can create a golem, but an eight of Dwemer can become one.""
- http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/marobar06.shtml

and, two snippets that should be read by everyone who is talking Dwemer and Tiber Septim:

I was mixing my metaphors, which is a dangerous thing to do in mythopoeic enchanting.

The second bit refers to what Vivec and the Trib. did with the tools. They walloped the heart with it, creating a repeat of the mythic event of Lorkhan's heart being ripped out. Then they used Keening to turn the agony into a tone they could bathe in. Thus, Keening, wailing or suffering. The wraithguard was used to shield the user from the untransmuted... whateveryoucall raw mythic energy. You're the word dude, make something up.

First bit refers to the Numidium, which is what Kagrenac was trying to do before the Tribunal interrupted him. We know Kagrenac made the tools to create a mantella, a Crux of Transcendence. (For those who don't read the Tarot, the Hanged Man in Tarot symbolizes the Crux of Transcendence, suffering to gain transcendence: Jesus on the cross, Odin hanging from the tree to gain wisdom, etc.)

So, we know what the tools are like, and what the Tribunal did with them, and we know what the mantella is like, and more or less how Tiber Septim made it - he killed his best friend, reenacting the murder of Lorkhan by Akatosh, and shoved his best friend's soul (or his own, or both, since they were tied) into a fancy rock, and then he plugged it into the Numidium, or Divine Skin.

Where the Divine Skin itself came from, the wise can find in other places.

Astounding. How long did this hide in plain sight?

Props.

As for making up a word for raw mythic energy, didn't I already do that? "Creatia"?

The conversations I had with some people over that topic also confirmed that above is correct thinking. So, the easy way is: we know where the Dwemer went (what they became) and what happened afterwards. Tiber Septim nailed himself to the Crux of Transcendence and the Warp in the West shattered it.

» Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:40 pm

Wait, wasn't there a Dwemer in Redguard? Can't remember the exact location, but he's in what seems to be an abandoned settlement, in a Dwemer tower. Been ages since I played Redguard, so he may have been an Altmer, but he had the senility of a dwemer that has been cooped up for 1000 years.