There are a lot of folks posting about this subject that know a lot more than me. With that said, I tried to install FONV on xmas with Steam. The site is not an easy, intuitive site and offered very little help for my install challenges. It tried, over and over, to download the entire game from Steam, instead of installing from the disc. Using google, I was finally able to find a work around, that allowed me to install and then start Steam in offline mode. I still resent the fact that I needed to install Steam, when I have the physical media in my hand. I also resent that I have to go to a site and lose positive control over something I paid money for. I bought it, it's legally mine and now I have a 3rd party telling me if I can access it or not???? That makes zero sense to me. The decision to go with Steam is a deal breaker for me personally. I'm just not going to subject myself to it again. I'm sure some of the challenges are because I'm not familiar with Steam...but if I pay for something, why should I have to learn 3rd party software in order to run it. It's like saying I bought a car, but because that car may be stolen, I have to install lojack and if lojack goes down, then I'm out of luck. I should be able to protect my own car and my own data. Not have it be controlled by someone else. I think Dragon Age handled it nicely, where it was least intrusive to the gaming experience. I think product keys are good enough for the casual gamer or a disc check. To go to this extreme, where so many fans have a hatred for Steam and as it's been pointed out, is largely ineffective at what it's trying to do, just svcks IMHO. I'd even pay extra for a non steam version. I'd gladly pay $10-15 more for a version that didn't require it. I'd rather have that, than deal with Steam.

The annoyed are negligible and Steamworks does not cost a thing. Valve gets their money since Steamworks games are also sold on Steam and a fraction of the price goes into their pockets, but other than that Steamworks is completely free for the game's independent dev, or publisher.

There are a lot of folks posting about this subject that know a lot more than me. With that said, I tried to install FONV on xmas with Steam. The site is not an easy, intuitive site and offered very little help for my install challenges. It tried, over and over, to download the entire game from Steam, instead of installing from the disc. Using google, I was finally able to find a work around, that allowed me to install and then start Steam in offline mode. I still resent the fact that I needed to install Steam, when I have the physical media in my hand. I also resent that I have to go to a site and lose positive control over something I paid money for. I bought it, it's legally mine and now I have a 3rd party telling me if I can access it or not???? That makes zero sense to me. The decision to go with Steam is a deal breaker for me personally. I'm just not going to subject myself to it again. I'm sure some of the challenges are because I'm not familiar with Steam...but if I pay for something, why should I have to learn 3rd party software in order to run it. It's like saying I bought a car, but because that car may be stolen, I have to install lojack and if lojack goes down, then I'm out of luck. I should be able to protect my own car and my own data. Not have it be controlled by someone else. I think Dragon Age handled it nicely, where it was least intrusive to the gaming experience. I think product keys are good enough for the casual gamer or a disc check. To go to this extreme, where so many fans have a hatred for Steam and as it's been pointed out, is largely ineffective at what it's trying to do, just svcks IMHO. I'd even pay extra for a non steam version. I'd gladly pay $10-15 more for a version that didn't require it. I'd rather have that, than deal with Steam.

I don't hate Steam. But I do hate all forms of online activation for retail versions of singleplayer games.

It's simply ridiculous. It's like having a game that can use at most 512 MB of RAM, but somehow won't run unless you have 2 GB of RAM. Or a game with black & white graphics that won't run unless your screen is capable of showing color.

Fortunately using an Ubisoft model is not the only logical alternative, and frankly that argument from Steam supporters is so old and tired I'm digging it's grave as we speak.

second line of my post says "disabling the cloud helps some"...

for some reason though, it still seems to used stored setting cuz adding a frame lock to 60, Fraps still says i'm running 90-100 fps.

Steam-the-DRM does cost, as it has to be handled by support when there's problems. And it obviously annoys enough people because there are anti-Steam groups, and outspoken opponents of it.

And it does cost something even when it works properly. It takes up disk space, it takes up memory, and it takes up processor time. And on some systems, yes, that extra little bit it wants to take can make or break being able to run a game. Steam is just another point of failure as it prevents you from playing if it fails to work for any reason at all. The game does not need it to function, so it should not be required to play the game.

There is no cost to the publisher and only a tiny fraction of people minds this measure - not enough to negate the money saved from using this mostly free protection. That is all that counts for business.

I'm playing on console. No worries

Effective copy protection is a myth

With all due respect, you are out of touch, if you think it's a "tiny fraction". Lots of potential customers do not care for steam, what it represents, what it puts on their computer etc. As far as business goes, that's not all that counts. What counts is making money. You make money by selling your product or services, usually aimed at a target market. If that target market doesn't like your product, they won't buy it. Steam now becomes part of the buying decision for Skryim and there are already people saying they will not purchase it for this reason. Will it greatly impact sales...I'm not sure. What I do know is that other games, like Dragon Age for instance, didn't have these type of emotional threads tied to anti pirating solutions. We only see this emotional response tied to steam. Maybe it's because it's the most popular and thus the most criticized, but to minimize it the way you did, doesn't give the criticism justice.

I've been avoiding Steam/Steamworks for a while now because of some of the reported issues with it. So, while it may be the future of gaming and distribution, it has affected my decisions on game purchases in the past. This will be the first ES game I will not rush out to buy since I started playing the series with MW. I'm not dismissing it out of hand, but, it is making me think twice about it. I know for sure that I won't be getting the game the day of, or, even the week of its release. I'll let others report on any possible issues with steam if there are any. I love the ES games, so, I'm not willing to say never, but, if it looks problematic, then, i'll be done with the series. Single player games shouldn't even have to deal with this.

Edited version in next post

last time I checked Anthropoid's "steam survey" nearly 35% of those who would buy the PC version said they wouldn't if it meant they had to deal with Steam. that's not a tiny fraction IMO.

And 90%* of these will end up buying the game when it comes out anyway.

* statistic may not be entirely accurate.

Perhaps fraction was the wrong word to use. Last time I checked the poll it was at 39.9%, but that was only 65 people.

But of those 90%, how many would buy the PC version rather than a console version? That question is probably fairly important to consider. Steam may well be driving people away to the consoles instead.

If you haven't tried steam yourself I recommend trying it before believing anybody (whether good or bad) before jumping to conclusions, I've never had problems but some do, a lot depends on your computer. I just suggest trying it first. I really enjoy it.

There is a lot of misconception about Steam here. It's not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be. I could go on and on about this, but I've seen 50 other discussions about Steam and it's really never going to change.

Like it was said by someone else, if you really hate it so much, buy it for 360 (possibly not PS3), or don't buy it at all. If you want to play with mods, learn to deal with it.

Sorry gamepads are painful to me & I will not subject myself to Steamworks again.

And I may. This could be the game that gets me on the Steam bandwagon. The game will have to be quite good to tempt me. If it turns out to be mediocre, then I probably won't bother. But, I won't try it until I see a significant number of users who both love the game, and haven't had any significant issues with Steam and the game. I'll just wait and see. I suppose I shouldn't be so resistant, since I rarely have any major issues with software in general, I just don't like the idea of having to use Steam with a hard copy of the game. I'm just going to wait and see.

My problem with steam is not about it being good or bad. Its about needing 3rd party software and that 3rd party controling whether or not I can play my game

With any DRM, you'll get 3rd party software, like it or not. It's just a question of whether the software is built on as a feature of the main software or whether it's a middleware program that runs separately in the background. Steam is the latter, but it's really not any different in terms of function and memory use.

I had to submit pictures of my product keys, which seemed to resolve the issue relatively quickly. If I had bought all my games through Steam though the process is reportedly much more of a hassle and takes longer. Also there are some things they ban you permanently for, as you hint at. Doing a chargeback on your credit card purchase for instance results in you losing your account forever, even if Steam really did make a mistake and charge you inappropriately.

In any event like I said before there is no reason Steam can't be made optional. Bethesda actually already made Steam optional in one of their games, Rogue Warrior. When you started the installation process it asked you whether you wanted an offline install with no multiplayer and limited features or a Steam install with multiplayer, achievements and leaderboard support. Fallout: New Vegas could have done the same thing, they just chose not to for whatever reason.

I dont personally care for steam, but i have little experience with it so my opinion doesnt count for much. Why do they keep trying DRM? all that does it delay pirating a few days and punishes people who legit buy it.