Todd said they will be on steam.

Well in the case of both of the guys I'm talking about, they had already amassed tons of legit purchases without a problem. Other than the annoyance factor associated with the client. One of them typo'd the expiration date on his card, the purchase still went through, but then Steam or the bank realized it was wrong and canceled it. The other one was due to some weird error with the bank transaction system and it bounced.

Both of them were not told the cause of the problem. They were just summarily banned from the service. They both called in and tried to get it resolved peacefully and were both essentially told they were thieves and no longer welcome. Oh, and both were told they weren't getting refunds for anything they bought.

It was only AFTER all this happened that they took my advice and called their CC companies to get them to issue chargebacks on the basis of fraudulent refusal of services. Both of them were quite surprised to find that the banks were not only willing to chargeback the transactions that caused the trouble to begin with, but they charged back ALL of the purchases and logged them all as fraudulent denials of access to purchased goods. I bet Valve wasn't the least bit happy about it, but screw them. They got what they had coming to them.

Well, then I guess the answer is to not use DRM, then. But even what Morrowind and Oblivion (not SI) had was fine, very lightweight and out-of-the-way, and didn't spread files all around your machine. Nowhere near the size of Steam.

Zenimax should know by now that you can't stop pirates. I think the OP's solution would be fine, as I enjoy Steam features, but I understand why some would prefer not to use it. And I wouldn't mind a disk check if you don't use Steam, which would prevent just sharing it with all the kids in the neighborhood.

I think the main issue with steam is that they can stop you playing with your whole library of games with one click. Any while you may be lucky to get your money back, if that games requires steam, you will not be able to play it. I was having a look at their conditions and it states if your account is hijacked ( a serious threat in today's world) and while being hijacked that account is banned because of anti cheat measures - you have that account locked permanently. If that does not leave a bitter taste in your mouth, I dont know what will.

I can tell you right now if Skyrim has Steam required, I will not purchase it. Period. That is no bluff, I do not agree with Valve's practices whatsoever, and I shall be taking no part in their walled garden.

Looks like i'll be getting Skyrim for the 360 then.

Steam doesn't mean Steamworks though. So unless it's confirmed as such I'll hold on to the hope that I can actually buy & use this game.

If they are to use Steam/Steamworks, does that mean that you're only permitted to install one copy of the game?

you are allowed to dl it as many times as you want.

Steam means that it's not an exclusively Steam game, Steamworks means that any PC version no matter where or how it's obtained must use Steam

Ok, well if I can install more than one copy then it doesn't bother me - I use Steam anyway.

I think what really made them distribute it exclusively through steam is that they did not want to spend the extra money to physically ship the cd's or even have them made, and steam probably offered them a really good deal to license the rights to them and no other sites like steam.



of course it will be on steam, but will it come out in physical copies as well. they can do both, but ones cheaper for beth of course... so which do you think they'll go for. save a couple ten thousand in shipping and alienating TES fans who hate or can't use steam, or spend a few 10k out of respect for those who have spent hundreds on their products. for people who don't like losing accounts, or the sites carrying their purchases going bankrupted, or their computers crashing and having to redownload again. and on and on and on...

You sure? Always been my understanding that Steamworks the DRM does not require Steam the bloatware client full of stuff I don't want like IMing and chat functions. Has this changed recently?

Was also my understanding that Steam the client doesn't necessarily mean the game used Steamworks the DRM.

Might be time to go dig the info up again and make sure.

A person with a computer defeats DRM in less than a week. DRM keeps the lid on for that first week. Past that I don't want [censored] happening every time I have to reinstall the game. Could you imagine how painful it is to install new games after wiping a hard drive? Limiting the number of uses of a cd code and steam and all that crap just makes the paying customers mad. I have more issues with games I've bought than my friend who doesn't. I now go to get the crack files so I don't shoot myself in the head as often.

same for Games for Windows LIVE. if you don't want to use it, you don't have too

All true.

I use steam and I'm fine with it, but I'd really like steamworks to be optional, for the the above reasons.

Sadly though, it looks like in the digital age we'll have that right revoked, and will have to "rent" indefinitely - or until your account is banned.

Edit: I don't even sell my games, it's the principle behind it.

They did release it on disc too, it just has to be used through steam.

Indeed - I'd take my business elsewhere, and urge others to do the same.

when I tried to install "Front mission evolved" this past October it required Steam updates & that lasted about 5 hours before I could even attempt installing the game from the disc, granted I am on dial-up, & all the bloat above seemed in there



from my understanding Steamworks is just taking a game as it it would be if it was in the Steam Store & putting it on disc or in another Digi-Distro service like D2D, with Steam(regular) Steam doesn't typically go on the disc, Take Torchlight for example, it started as a Steam game but when I installed the disc version, Steam was absent & not required to play.

Steam doesn't bother me. I would hate to see Skyrim go the way of GFWL where I would have to buy M$ points to get the dlc's. At least Steam lets you use cash.

Microsoft points are still cash, I don't see peoples issues with them.

I find say if I buy 5,000 MP then it will last me over many things.

The issue is that if the DLC cost 800 points and you can only buy 1000 points, then you spend more than you have to. Why buy 200 points you won't use?

you may use them later for something, however a system where you can only buy X amount would be nice but maybe it's harder to put in than we think

Retail CDs prevent this issue as well, which is how I got all my FO3 DLCs. Didn't have to deal with either service that way.

No, it isn't. It's there just to make us buy more points than we need.