What steam controversy? Am I missing something here?

the Steamworks controversy is that Steamworks removes alot of the user rights and abilities that not everyone wants to lose.

Ugh, I hate Steam. It's such a nuisance and crashes/dc's every 5 minutes. It's too "corporate", if you know what I mean. But I'll be buying it on Xbox anyway, because I don't have a supercomputer.

If Steam was optional I would never complain about it, it is a great program with a lot of benefits (especially for multiplayer games).

Forcing Steam on every player is annoying though, and auto-patching can cause a lot of problems for people since often Bethesda patches break more than they help. You can turn off auto-updates in Steam but once you update and see it broke something you can never roll back, you are stuck with the newest version even after a reinstall. Making Steam optional would solve these issues and allow those who want to play without the client to do so, or who are worried about DRM to have a DRM-free backup copy. As many have said Steam does not stop piracy at all, so forcing it on people only makes those who dislike it upset and solves nothing.

Another option would be to offer a patch to remove the need for Steam a year or so after the game comes out. This would allow me to buy the game, use Steam, yet have the promise of a DRM-free backup copy in the future.

As it is a customer has to resort to questionable methods to roll back a patch, have a DRM free backup copy or run the game without a client they might find annoying. That's just unfortunate customer INconvenience, if you ask me.

Yeah, it http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1163115-skyrim-italian-coverage/.

There is probably something wrong with your computer if Steam crashes/dc's every 5 minutes.

it did say Steam & not Steamworks so there is a chance (however slim) it just means Steam available & not the "All your game are belong to us" version of Steam.

Why people hate Steam? Give me reasons why Steam is THAT bad.
Easiest solution to Steam controversy is install Steam and D/L Skyrim anyway.

I'll repeat myself again: Bethesda Softworks has used Steamworks since Rogue Warrior, Brink is confirmed to use Steamworks as well, and other announced titles have appeared for sale on Steam first. It's 99% certain that all their announced titles as of now will be using Steamworks.

that doesn't help solve the problem

if Skyrim requires Steam (Steamweorks) I'll have to pass it by

not everyone has the internet connection to make Steam worth it & some still don't allow their gaming systems online & there are those who are not fans of how Steam works & there is is the "no rollback" patch issue.

Steam as an option is good but when there is no other option (AKA Steamweorks) it's not good for everyone, though some like it.

@RedViv, Brink being a MP game makes sense to use Steamworks.but Steamworks makes less sense being forced on a SP game.

Firstly, I see no reason to like it. I certainly don't need it. It doesn't make my games any better. So going in neutral, Steam has to do something that I need and personally beneficial.

With Steamworks some games you are forced to use it.
It apparently also collects data on my gaming habits for it's own ends. The price for me providing this information is open to negotiation, that is personal information that could be of value.
Any game registered to my account, then after playing and completeing the game, or just getting bored of it and deciding it's not my thing, I then cannot resell the game on to get extra money towards buying Skyrim, as it is tied to that account and is non-transferable, which directly harms the value of the game, and leaves me with less potential income for games.
I don't like the idea of installing something that has adware on my PC. Anything that throws adverts onto my desktop is plainly offensive.

There are other reasons why I can't bring myself to like it. Given those reasons, which I think are rational, I think I have a point.

Except for the DRM thing, this is all solved by using the offline mode.

It has adware popups apparently, which is inherent to the program itself. Unless there is a ad free version to DL, I don't think offline mode is going made it adware free.

Steams data collection functions only operate in online mode?

You haven't been able to resell any PC games for a long time now even before steam existed. Heck even the Game stores in the UK tell you at transaction for PC games, even non steam games ones, that they will not give refunds and you cannot return it.

does Amazon UK allow the PC games to be sold like the US version?

http://www.amazon.com/Fallout-New-Vegas-Pc/dp/B002SU4QG4/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1296335906&sr=1-1

1) I have to ask a company nicely if I can play the game I just spent money on, which is annoying on principle.

2) I am relying on Steam activations servers to function to install my game and one day they won't be working anymore (10 years, 20 years, 100 years, who knows... I play old games a LOT though, so it is a concern).

3) Valve can ban your account for any reason and you lose official access to all your games (mine was banned for "suspicion of resale" and it took me over a week to get it back).

4) Many people do not have internet access, or broadband access, and Steam often downloads hundreds of MBs of info during install, or even a GB or more. Metro 2033 downloaded 2GB after disc installation for me.

5) No rolling back patches, if a patch breaks the game in your system you are stuck hoping for another patch. Call of Duty: Black Ops singleplayer went from working fine for me to stuttering constantly after a patch and I had no way to roll back versions.

6) For people who don't want the social features of the client it is just a hassle. Instead of the game launching from a desktop icon it launches Steam, signs in, loads a bit, then loads the game.

7) Steam can be buggy at times, sitting on the launching dialogue for quite a while or saying "this game cannot be accesses at this time" when their servers are overwhelmed. If you don't go offline after installing the game from their menu system then offline mode might not work correctly.

All in all it's a lot of hassle for people who just want to play the game and not be bothered. Obviously we are outnumbered by people who like the service though, so I don't blame them for using it. My main issue is make it optional... if you want auto-updates and other Steam features, and you want to buy the DLC, then activate on Steam. If you don't then don't, or only use it to update or get DLC. Make it optional, there is literally no reason not to... it's not stopping piracy what-so-ever.

PC games are still sell able on the second hand market. In fact I sold 2 PC games, and 3 PS2 games in the past year. In the UK.

Retail games stores :shrug: I wouldn't know about, haven't used one in about 4 years.

If only that were actually true

As I've been telling other people elsewhere, offline mode is a joke and doesn't actually work as advertised. I've seen it with my own eyes after turning off every conceivable option that would connect, including the one that explicitly mentioned offline mode. The client STILL insists on regularly connecting to the internet to "validate" or something, and in the course of doing so has forced patches to be downloaded for things that have been explicitly told not to do so.

It's been long enough since I've watched it all happen that I don't remember which games did it, but that's just not something I care to deal with. Any other program I tell to stop connecting to the internet that defies that wish usually gets deleted and never touched again. Awfully hard to do that if Steam locks all your games into the account and at the same time refuses to follow its "offline" mode.

I find all of that offensive enough that I'd even prefer disc based copy protection from the old days that gave your hardware fits of rage due to the way it was done.

Certainly with the amount of controversy and the number of flamewars the subject generates and the number of lost sales it causes, you'd think Bethesda might opt for a more friendly activation scheme than all that. I've already mentioned a few games that do the right thing. Someone would need to come up with a really good argument for why those games don't have acceptable DRM schemes but Steamworks is acceptable when it comes with so much additional baggage.



And then Gamestop came along, the one good thing about the place. Buy a game you hate? They'll refund your money. Or allow you to trade it for something else. Assuming you are one of the lucky who finds actual PC games for sale there to begin with.



Consider yourself lucky. Two of my friends got their accounts permanently banned, with hundreds of dollars worth of games they can no longer play. All because of Valve's overly aggressive "anti-fraud" policies. Which don't appear to have exceptions for genuine mistakes such as typos and/or the bank screwing something up in the process.

I don't know about the UK, but there is a thriving secondhand-market for used video games in the U.S. Just check out eBay, Amazon.com, Gamespot, etc . Actually, I just auctioned my copy of Dragon Age on eBay a few months ago (thankfully, DA only had a disk check). So it is a mistake to say that there is no secondhand market in video games or that Steam is not a purposeful attempt to destroy that market. Steam is probably more effective at diminishing the secondhand market than it is as a DRM system, since nearly all Steam games have been cracked and pirated anyhow.

Would you rather have something like what Ubisoft where you had to be online constantly and if your connection dropped for a second or even if their servers dropped for a second your game would stop until it reconnected?

The only thing i hate about it is the accursed cloud, which stores your settings on the cloud (their file server) and seems to use them instead of the local ones on your PC. if you want to change settings in an ini file, and that file is on the cloud, toughluck, it's no longer possible. your changes will be overwritten at next game launch with your initial settings stored on the cloud. disabling the cloud helps some, your files are no longer overwritten, but your settings are still stored, and are still used instead of yuor local settings.

this may not be exactly what it is, I don't work for steam and the only steam games i own are FO:NV and BF:Bad Company 2 (unmoddable)

with New Vegas, it was Impossible to add Vsync, even if you add it in the settings like FO3, cuz the cloud says No, and when the cloud says you'll use it's settings, your using it's f**king settings.

I wouldn't.

But luckily that is not the only option for DRM.

edit: and nor is Steamworks for that matter.

Open steam games list, right click game select properties, go to Updates page and deselect "enable steam cloud...."

I have the popups on my main gaming machine, which is always online, but the one that isn't and has had Steam running in offline mode for ages has not seen any of those since setting it up this way. Which of course makes sense, since Steam does not connect to the internet and thus will not know what kind of sales are going on right now.
I don't know whether Steam will report back once you enable online mode, but I doubt it. Also I do not know whether the third party Steamworks package actually includes this kind of reporting mechanism, as I've only seen this used in Valve's own games. It is not reported to be part of the Steamworks package in the agreement texts I can find.

"It could be worse" is never a valid reason to allow something.

I really really hope Bethesda comes to their senses and realizes that they don't need any DRM. It just annoys their customers and adds cost. CD Projekt has it right with The Witcher 2. Follow their lead.