Yes Bunker Hill is being used by the Railroad to move through their network of safehouses, the locals are just cover for that effort and the Railroad is not protecting the population of Bunker Hill, its protecting the Synths hiding there....neither the Institute or the Brotherhood seem to make any attempt to harm any of the local population.

You're free to hold your opinion, while I will hold mine. That which is capable of sapient reason and communication is clearly a person (a lack of communication just makes it less clear).

I agree that the Railroad shouldn't be the only force in the Commonwealth, but luckily, it never has to be.

I view them as a perfectly legitimate force within the Commonweath, but they are not in any way interested in helping humans.....to be fair they don't have the numbers or the organisation to be much help since they are barely staying intact from Institute attacks but it not their focus or indeed even their desire to help humanity.

Railroad ending has checkpoints setup staffed by Heavies just like the BoS ending.


So all groups effectively take over the Commonwealth in their respective ending.

A couple folks in PA standing around by the roadside does not equate with "holding ground." What I'm talking about is defining the strategic points that should be controlled, TAKING control of them (meaning setting up a base of operations on a par _at least_ with what they have going at Cambridge Police Station) and then basically holding it for the rest of the game.

Bethesda could have done this, there are plenty of locations and to have the BoS "secure" even a half dozen over the span of 10 or 15 player levels after they arrive would have not been much of an imposition on the rest of the game design.

The BoS are explicitly engaged in an invasion and a campaign to "rid the Commonwealth of scum" but apart from undertakings that involve the SS questing with them, we are given virtually no indication that they actually are able to accomplish real on the ground progress toward this goal. Their vertibirds fly around, attacking scum positions, often get blown up, their teams routinely suffer half casualties if not decimated, and the only areas they seem capable of controlling on their own are the airfield and the police station. They had seven years to design this game and it is obvious the BoS are not an afterthought. They made them this way on purpose, right down the ridiculous demeanor(s) and Maxson's over-the-top hubris and silly hairdo.

They are, at best, marginally effective and only partly professional. This is obviously how Bethesda meant for them to be appraised by the player. Without the SS they would get nowhere.

Not entirely, Helljumper. Deacon often states that they used to run missions to help Humans, but Desdemona won't green-light missions to help Humans, possibly hinting she's the primary reason the Railroad had gone from being an anti-slavery organisation to a anti-Synth-slavery organisation. Much like the Institute and Brotherhood, there's somebody calling the shots who possibly shouldn't be ...

If I'm reading the commentary from the NPCs right, before Desdemona took over, the Railroad was helping Humans and Synths, but then either Desdemona took over and altered the Railroad's primary purpose, or the Institute started to really crack down on them and Desdemona doubled down on saving Synths in response, as the only real way to fight back against an organisation whose main base was seemingly unreachable.

And I think people are forgetting that while Maxson is certainly an unnervingly zealous and at-times callous leader, he honestly believes what he is doing is honestly the right course of action, and that he can make the Commonwealth safe again, and while oppressive in the extreme, the Brotherhood does increase the protection and safety of the pure-blooded Humans under their dominion. Ghouls are best advised to leave the region, and Super Mutants are KoS regardless of if they are violent or not.

Does anyone know if this 'Shephard' that Maxson fought was trying to assemble the Super Mutants into a fighting force or a nation? It's never mentioned explicitly why he was gathering the other Super Mutants, but then Danse also admits that the Brotherhood is not above propaganda when it suits their purpose, when you take him into radio-stations or the bugle offices. It's one of those situations where people who are not comfortable with the jack-boot approach of this incarnation of the BoS are given yet more 'evidence' that something isn't kosher, while those who are simply see it as a logical and useful tool in a war without end.

Neither side is wrong or right, and that's the beauty of this story. Both sides are perfectly justified in their beliefs with plentiful ammunition for forum-wars.

Unfortunately, there's subtext in the journals, holotapes and terminal entries that seem to suggest that the Elders before Maxson were set up to fail or subtly assassinated for following Lyon's beliefs, he's being 'boosted' to a heroic figure to try and rally a flagging Brotherhood chapter around this burgeoning 'legend', or that he might actually not be quite as heroic as he pretends, given that Danse mentions that Maxson never likes to get his hands dirty during a certain 'crisis' mission for the BoS.

This is magnificent bastardry on Bethesda's part, as we never actually get to see if Maxson really is the simple soldier he seems to believe he is or something darker or false. The actions of the Brotherhood, if you haven't signed on with Danse before the Prydwen arrives, are also somewhat disturbing in that they openly dismiss you even after saving them from Super Mutants or Raiders, stating "If you're not Brotherhood, you're nothing." in several cases, yet once you've signed up they fall over each other to kiss up to you.

There's a very heavy sense of "Do as we say, not as we do." with the Brotherhood, a sense of callous disregard for the people despite the rhetoric of wanting to protect them. And given the intense hero-worship of Maxson and the stated anti-Lyons sentiment of the 'division' aboard the Prydwen, the current batch of BoS trying to 'liberate' the Commonwealth might not be what the Commonwealth actually wants or needs.

And what is a 'Division' anyways? Are they talking about the entire Chapter's fighting force? A significant portion? Just the elite forces? If it's the first, that's disturbing in that it means the entire Capital Wasteland just became undefended. If it's the second, then that means the Capital Wasteland is under-defended but possibly not to the point where the Brotherhood's rule will slip, for good or ill. If it's the third definition, then that means Maxson came out here with his most devoted soldiers and the lion's (Lyon's?) share of their Power Armor and other tech to fight this 'crusade', which means should the BoS fail, then the Capital Wasteland BoS Chapter is about to lose a great deal of their ability to express their power.

There's also the naggingly ambiguous statements on the Prydwen's terminals and holotapes that when the Enclave Base stopped providing adequate resources for the building of the Airship, the BoS turned to Rivit City. Considering how the BoS act and how determined that Maxson is/was to build this flying troop-carrying fortress, I sincerely doubt the population of Rivit City was asked about their opinion on this, nor compensated for the loss of their reactor or the damage to their home that the BoS's salvage teams would have done if the snippets of BoS talking about shaking down traders for tech are any indication.

I'm curious, does The Railroad also send people to Diamond City during their post-game ending?

You're literally the only person who's brought this up. I even googled it and came up with nada.

By your logic, if you side with the Institute, you can't reform the Institute or use it as you see fit as you can't order people around in-game.

Except that attempting to garrison to many strategic points and checkpoints when you primary enemy can appear and disappear at will would be a suicidal tactic. The Brotherhood was there to deal with the Synth menace (in their eyes), spreading out your forces in penny packets makes no sense until you have dealt with the Institute, once the threat is removed the Brotherhood do begin to switch to garrisoning areas rather than staying primarily mobile. There is no real reason to garrison any other strategic locations except to deny it to the enemy and to allow the movement of Caravans, neither of which is a priority in the fight against the Institute, really the Brotherhood shouldn't be wasting resources fighting all over the map and remain concentrated on the area around the airport and any area they need to complete their mission.......their willingness to spend blood and treasure fighting the threats to the Commonwealth Citizens is one of the things that fly in the face of the claims that they are a facist organisation.

The Railroad does have checkpoints at the end when you choose them. All factions do. I played as the RR on my first playthrough as my character was sneaky/sniper/pistol so it kind of fit. At first I liked the vibe and the missions but they do become extremist the further you progress, which had me turned off by the end of it.

But yes, they do have patrols like the BOS.

EDIT: They even get vertibirds. I didn't play long after my ending cause I wanted to start another playthrough but I remember one.

Here you go:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vertibird_signal_grenade

"The vertibird signal grenade can only be used outside, and only by members of the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Steel, the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Minutemen, or the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Railroad upon completion of the former's main questline."

"First given by http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Arthur_Maxson as a reward for the quest http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Show_No_Mercy. More can be bought from http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Proctor_Teagan aboard the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Prydwen or from http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Tinker_Tom at the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Railroad_HQ after finishing the main questline for the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Railroad."

Dude, I don't like ANY of these factions!

BoS: clowns with weapons

Institute: evil geniuses who if helped will destroy humanity once and for all

RR: delusional, misguided social justice warriors (of a sort)

Minutemen: feckless, disorganized peasants with a vague notion of democracy and justice.

Honestly, what I really wish this game had was an ending with only the SS, NO FACTION alliances at all. I guess the Minutemen is the closest thing that comes to this, but it has PRESTON!.

If taking control of the Commonwealth is beyond their means, then why are they even there? As Neckbeard pointed out in his post just up above: we are given plenty of clues that this "crusade" has stretched the East Coast BoS resources to their limits, and it might even precipitate the collapse of the entire East Coast organization!

Military theorists since Sun Tzu have advised against exactly this kind of desperate measure. If it was a desperate measure in defense of the survival of the BoS that would be one thing, but in this case it is not defensive. It is a poorly planed, poorly executed, badly conceived invasion on a shoe-string budget and which just might have left their home base sufficiently weakened that it will lead to disaster.

They get a vertibird for you, but do they patrol with them as well?

They are there to deal with the threat that Synths and the Institute pose, we know from Fallout 3 that Synths were being sent to the Capitol Wasteland (by the Railroad) so its not unreasonable that they would have investigated that threat and mobilised a response. I saw nothing in the game that claimed that they were there to take conquer the Commonwealth, now they are there though they might as well deal with the scum plaguing the region (I also saw no evidence of any threat of collapse, seems to be more wishful thinking than anything in the game).

I think you are missing my point, it would be impossible for anybody to successfully spread themselves out in garrisons and survive against a foe that can appear (launch an attack) and disappear at will.....its an invitation to be defeated in detail.

So let me get this straight? They've had some problems with some synths in the Capitol Wasteland. They've sent some patrols up to the Commonwealth, most of which have become lost or decimated. One patrol "Gladius"--or whatever it is that Danse and crew are designated when you save them from some ferals and then help them to pick some locks/hack some terminals to get a transceiver strong enough for them to communicate with HQ--has _barely_ managed to survive, and only with help of the SS does.

So, what intell exactly is it that prompts Maxson to go ahead with this "invasion" and what exactly are the operational objectives?

You say it is to interdict the Institute, but how are a flying blimp and random vertibird patrols and a few "scribes" collecting data possibly going to lead to that? Especially given that, the only means available to the SS to discover and access the Institutes location is to consort with a Super Mutant, you know, the guys the BoS consider to be "shoot on sight?"

None of this strikes me as even the least bit well thought out. It is an act of desperation or foolhardiness and it would not succeed without the help of the SS.

Not to mention that "We are hear to crush the Institute" seem contradictory to what many BoS fans seem to claim "that they are there to 'help' the citizens" and the fact that they are just haphazardly attacking raiders, ferals and SM locations all over the map. I agree with you that, IF the actual goal of the mission was to detect, infiltrate and assault the Institute and take it out, then "holding ground" wouldn't necessarily be that helpful. Indeed it might well be counter productive to such a covert type of mission. But then again showing up in a gigantic blimp and sending out flying vertibird patrols isn't helping with a mission to get into and take out the Institute either.

Either Bethesda just did an absolute butcher job on this whole BoS story (in the event they really are heroic and meritorious) or they are really intended to be what they are in the game: clowns without a clue of how to engage in a proper military campaign of ANY sort, much less a covert intelligence-gathering mission like getting into the Institute.

Well the Institute is quite open in Fallout 3 that it is the source of human like Synths, combine that with some Synths going loco and murdering some locals Or BOS members.....we don't actually know what finally prompted the Brotherhood to organise the expedition but once whatever happens has happened they successfully move a large force to Boston and are secure in their established base.

Crushing the Institute would help the citizens since the Institute is seen by the locals as the main threat to them in the game.

I'd assume that the plan was to move a force to Boston, Scribes would identify the location of the Institute by tracking the mysterious signal and then Liberty Prime their asses. Nothing really covert about it from start to finish, of course once they are on site, the scribes cannot locate the Institute (of course nobody can locate the Institute) and the Brotherhood expedition is in a holding pattern with no way to actually attack the Institute so they spend their time randomly attacking mutant scum/Raiders, crashing Vertibirds and waiting for a breakthrough from the scribes.

There is really nothing else they can do, garrisoning strategic locations would just allow the Institute to massacre the isolated pockets for no gain and there is no way to attack the Institute if you don't know its location.....so in that sense, yes it was a mistake on Maxson's part to launch the expedition without first gaining the location of the Institute, perhaps he put to much faith in the scribes.

At worst without the existence of the SS (damn that is a bad way to shorten the Sole Survivor), the Brotherhood would have been forced to abandon the expedition......embarrassing for Maxson, but I'm sure that Quinlain (?) could spin it out as a glorious victory.

Yeah I cringe every time someone calls Nate the SS.

So, some folks are now arguing that because a faction in a single player game, in this case the BOS, needs the help of the Player Character in order to succeed that this is proof of the ineptitude of the faction and its leader. Really?

And yes, there are plenty examples in this game of less than stellar writing in this game on Bethesda's part. I don't hold Bethesda's writing against any faction or NPC.

The BoS and Institute could actually hold their own without the SS, it's the MM and RR that desperately need the SS to do anything. The railroad are on the verge of being destroyed by the time the SS meets them, the MM are only one man and four survivors from Quincy. The BoS on the other hand have a large nation and the Institute have a way to make a robot army.

If anything it's the RR that's the only inept faction and that's because they ran into bad luck. Maxson defeated Shephard, stopped a super mutant uprising and repaired a schism at age 15 and continued to build the BoS into a power house in a short amount of time.

It is the inconsistency. Based on their dialogue and mannerisms, they pretty universally believe themselves to be superior, expert, a virtually unstoppable force. But in game they are not. I've seen dozens of vertibirds go down. I've seen plenty of their squads chewed to pieces. Without Sole Survivor help, they make no progress at all.

This is true for all the factions, but the only one for which their 'self-image' and flavor are egregiously inconsistent is the BoS.

You can dismiss it as "Bethesda's bad writing" or you can conclude it is intentional: Bethesda meant for them to be clownish.

If the Minutemen (Preston) were like "What do you want, wastelander? . . . You are not a Minuteman, you are nothing. . . you better not show your face around here till you finish those errands I gave you peon . . . well a nice surprise that you managed to handle that task I gave you, maybe you are not as pathetic as you look . . . we shall vanquish all scum in the Commonwealth! . . . To Victory! etc., etc." wouldn't you consider them to be suffering some pretty bad hubris?

The hyperbole is thick in that post. Vertibirds svck to make it easier on institute and rr players, not to suggest the brotherhood svcks

So you're saying the BoS doesn't svck, even though they svck?

I'm saying that the Brotherhood doesn't svck even though vertbirds svck.

The Brotherhood clearly doesn't svck as an organization or military unit, not in game and not in lore.

And the RR could never have defeated them without Nate acting as a spy anyway.

All of the factions are meant to be flawed intentionally. That's pretty much the deal the developers laid out, there isn't supposed to be an optimal choice that makes everyone happy.


Each organization brings something different to the table and each has its downsides. You just pick which one has downsides that you think your character can live with.