The BoS are superior ... to wastelanders lacking education, training and organization. In other words, the bar is really low. Hence their sense of superiority. Things should be judged in historical context. They are far from the worst possibility ... but I am not a fan.

I know people that argue that the greatest general of WW2 was General Marshall, but how many people today even know who he was?

I wouldn't go so far as to say they're intended to be clownish. I think that's overstating it quite a bit.

But I will say I think we're intended to see a degree of hubris, brashness, and perhaps a tad lack of planning in their stratagem. Perhaps its different from the perspective of a Brotherhood player, since you're working with them quite closely and helping them in their tasks. But from the perspective of an Institute player, I thought the invasion of the Commonwealth looked a bit poorly executed.

Maxson and the Prydwen come flying in, flags flying and loudspeakers blaring announcing their arrival to everyone in the Commonwealth. Making this grandiose show of force and Brotherhood power (that's admittedly very cool)....and then....nothing.

Brotherhood scribes can't find the location of The Institute. The attack stalls, and The Brotherhood just sort of falls back into default operations of scavenging for technology and hitting raiders and mutants. All the while losing men, supplies, and aircraft the longer they are in the doldrums. The two major engagements they have with The Institute before the attack on Logan Airport are at Mass Fusion and Bunker Hill. Both of which seem to be unplanned (on the part of both parities) and just sort of a matter of "Oh [censored], guess whose here. Attack!"

Maxson may have been a bit too eager to take the fight to The Institute. Without fully understanding what he was up against. Which sort of seems in-line with his character. Bold, overeager, and headstrong: brave perhaps, but also overconfident. Seems like they planned for a much more traditional military campaign, but The Institute doesn't fight traditional military campaigns, and has no need to. Which left The Brotherhood a bit unprepared for what followed when they couldn't immediately find them.

Just my thoughts anyway.

Did everyone forget Mama Murphy's predictions in a post BOS ending where she says you and the BOS defend the Commonwealth and take dangerous technology away from those who would abuse it? Seems like a good deal to me.

The BoS's storyline is intrinsically linked with the main quest, so it doesn't feel as disjoined as it looks from the outside. You're constantly looking for an in, and Maxson's garish entrance was designed to instill fear in the Institute and any other possible enemies.

I think he says something about history showing that the tactic tends to work well.

The Arrival of Elder Maxson aboard Prydwen is no doubt presented the way it is, purely for dramatic effect. However, it is also arguable that there is tactical merit to this arrival as well. First, it can be a form of 'Gunboat Diplomacy' to intimidate the locals, not unlike the US parking an aircraft carrier of someone's coast. Also, despite efforts, with mixed success, to gather signal and human intelligence on the Institute, the target location remains unknown. A dramatic entrance, could be an attempt to provoke the Institute into revealing itself openly.

As an aside, in my recent Institute play through, I had the 'Durable Vertibirds' (set to Deadly, Level 50) mod installed. The BOS was a much more impressive foe. I had three chase me halfway across Boston after the Battle of Bunker Hill.

This is exactly why Bethesda didn't make them that strong, it would take perfect hits with a mini-nuke to destroy the vertibirds if they were that strong and that would just get so annoying for Institute and RR players and it's kinda silly we even have to point this out. It's the same reason dragons in skyrim weren't all high leveled near impossible to kill death dealers, because it would've been incredibly annoying to kill them all.

Cider, I found it made the Institute play through much more enjoyable. It created a sense of urgency to defeat the BOS, since they clearly represented a real danger to the Institute.

But I also agree with your point that had Bethesda released the game with vertibirds this tough, the wailing and weeping would have been epic.

Oh no, personally I agree with you. Bethesda should've made them stronger in fact I'm doing the same thing. I'm getting that mod and going to keep it active even as I do my Institute playthrough because well, vertibirds should be strong.

[censored] the wailing and weeping. Make a good game. If the BoS are gonna be that uppity and contemptuous I want to see proof they are deserving of their lofty status. Otherwise they are just clowns. An RR player or Institute player who is trying to shoot down vertibirds without proper means to do so is a [censored] as they should have no place to whine (in the event the birds were realistically durable). None of you would argue that they need to make Courser's pushovers or place them in contexts where they are more vulnerable to BoS style tactics to avert BoS player whining would you? That's like arguing that Mirelurks and Behemoths need to be nerfed so that explorer types can go whereever they want and not have to face an unbeatable boss at low level.

A BoS that truly could kill anything it wanted at any time in virtually any numbers take very few casualties and mop up by taking whatever resources it wants, but . . . owing to a shortage of vertibirds, fuel, supplies ammo, and men, cannot manage to do this all the time all over the place (which is how it is portrayed), is what would be realistic and respectable.

They should be engaging in quite deliberate raids and assaults on key locations, locations which Bethesda has seven years to dream up. Even just three of them that they do with or without your help, plus a few more if you do BoS faction quests. Get rid of the stupid random vertibird's buzzing around and dropping like flies. It is silly and all it does is present them as clowns. That airship could hold a dozen or those aircraft maximum and perhaps 150 passengers and crew. When you consider that 75 of those are almost assuredly support personnel and crew for the airship, that leaves about ONE COMPANY of actual assault solders, two or three platoons, between 6 and 8 squads of actual assault troops is all they should have based on the size of that ship, and they should behave accordingly, instead of being randomly spawned in the dozens and dying in nearly as large of numbers.

I'm not crazy about their mission, and several of their personalities are abrasive, but honestly what irks me the most is that they have been portrayed in this almost farcically inconsistent manner.

Coursers aren't actually that strong tbh, like they're only that good because of the stealth and moving around fast otherwise they can be beaten pretty easily if you have a gun like a shotgun, gauss rifle, automatic gun or a mini-gun or gatling laser. Like seriously, this whining is getting old. People have been constantly disproving your "BoS are clowns" bullcrap throughout this thread, hell like I said before the BoS are the most military competent faction in the game and this shows off well, a BoS patrol can easily wipe out an entire location on their own and the CIT siege for the BoS is essentially pathetic because the Institute synths are getting wiped out shortly after they teleport in.

You can do the entire CIT siege mission for the BoS without firing a shot and at most maybe 2-3 BoS soldiers will get killed, that's it compared to all the Synths the institute sends out.

The BoS aren't clowns and the only person thinking that is you because you refuse to accept any other viewpoints but your own.

You haven't proven [censored] Cider! The BoS are clowns in the game. I don't have to accept anyone's viewpoint and you do not have to accept mine.

I'm making comments that could conceivably lead to a better game. Meanwhile you BoS fans just want to sit around and circle jerk to a Maxson centerfold. . .

I've proven more then you have. The BoS are the most military competent force in the game, this is proven by the fact their two man squads can do more damage then any of the other patrols. Their soldiers are stronger then the Institute, this is proven because the BoS have the superior firepower and the synths aren't as tough as power armor wearing soldiers. The vertibirds offer air superiority, the only reason they're that weak is because having them being stronger would require projectile explosives which not all players carry on them. Liberty Prime can be used to scan buildings and find underground complexes, that's how the BoS manage to pinpoint where the weak part of the Institute is during the C.I.T. siege and the BoS don't even need to rely on the Sole Survivor to rebuild Liberty Prime because Prime gets rebuilt anyway and it's the way the Institute takes out the BoS if you aid them.

The BoS aren't "clowns" they're probably the most powerful faction in the game and this is shown NUMEROUS times during their campaign. You're welcomed to have your own opinion but preferring misinformation, using said misinformation to make a point and going "NUH UH YOU'RE WRONG LALALALALA" with your fingers in your ears doesn't make you right.

So it sounds like they get vertbirds and then only use them as taxis. Which means they ONLY protect checkpoints, compared to the Brotherhood who wanders everywhere.

Of the various factions, the Brotherhood probably does have the most raw power. Where they seem to be lacking is in intelligence, as mentioned before in posts about how their invasion of the Commonwealth was ill-planned, leading to them stumbling in the dark and feeling for the Institute.

Not really, even intelligence and tactics wise the Brotherhood is still one of the most competent. They brought along Liberty Prime to rebuild him and as I've stated before Liberty Prime has the ability to scan buildings and find underground complexes. That sounds like a plan and as other members have points out in this forum the whole entrance is a smart tactic to show the Brotherhood means business and shows off that they have a large force that can contend with everything the Commonwealth has, which they do prove.

Even if the SS doesn't help the BoS the BoS still build Liberty Prime (Again, the Institute hacks prime to use if as a way to destroy the BoS http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Airship_Down )

Like, the faction war is purely between the BoS and the Institute, the RR is a baby dog trying to show it's tough but needs help actually becoming tough and the MM is pretty much dead. If the SS wasn't a factor I'm pretty sure the BoS could still successfully fight the Institute and possibly win.

Personally I enjoy the Minutemen faction quest like

More of an Institute person myself. Maybe it's just because of the mods I'm playing (Homemaker ZephyrWarrior's F4 Power Armor Overhaul really gives me a good reason to play institute... Being able to "Institutionalize" the settlements is neeaaaat. And that Institute Paint Job is just Ballin'.)


Ideologically though I tend to side with the Minutemen.

I'm trying to give the BOS a fair chance... but the more I'm playing them the more not less I'm convinced they're utter fascists and clowns and the only good thing about them is they have a nice airship. I'm starting to like them less the more I play them not more, and Danse (yes I know of his twist) is not really helping matters any.

You mean the practically non-existent questline?

That was indeed the joke.

He probably should have put This is the Joke at the top so everyone here could pick up on it.

They're really not clowns, again they're probably the most powerful faction in the game. As for the Fascist part, yea I can see that but one could also make the same case for Institute. Institute is lead by the Director who has absolute control aka a dictatorship, use a slave race, are constantly thinking they have the right to push around surface dwellers and think it's acceptable to make certain surface dwellers just disappear and be replaced and Coursers look awfully like a secret police force to me. That kinda sounds like fascism to me.

Fascism requires a level of political ideology that the Institute doesn't possess. Dictatorial, sure, but it is definitely not fascist. Of course, I wouldn't say that the Brotherhood is fascist either, though it too is dictatorial.

Both factions can be seem as dictatorial. The Directorate is nothing but a council of the heads of the labs but they're opinions don't matter, they're simply there to give reports and offer advice, they have no say in the affairs or policies of the Institute, that's all on the Director. BoS also doesn't have a secret police-esque group in them nor do they brainwash anyone who defects, they also don't kidnap people, take out settlement leaders (see Mayor McDonough) and replace them.

Like the institute doesn't have much ideology outside of science but that doesn't excuse that their actions and structure are pretty fascist and dictatorial.

They do murder innocent people for the crime of being synths, even if they happen to be loyal members of the Brotherhood (and if you want to bring up the possibility of having Danse spared, you have to equally weigh the Brotherhood being complicit in crop theft, as both actions are wholly down to the Sole Survivor). And fascism is a very specific type of authoritarianism that the Institute doesn't practice.

But mostly I want to stop the Brotherhood because I see their current expansionism and bigotry morphing into something worse under Maxson if they're given a victory; it's similar to the issue of the NCR's corrupt leadership winning in the Mojave, but worse. Maxson and his expedition must not be allowed to obtain victory, and the destruction of Outcast influence would be ideal. I also think that their reason for existence is fundamentally wrong, as the Old World was primarily destroyed by economic and diplomatic mismanagement, not technology.

Mmmm. Nuclear war might have ended the world, but that was only the symptom, not the disease itself. Corrupt governments (which the Brotherhood originally formed to fight, which makes me think the original Founders would be spinning in their graves to see what their idealistic crusade has become), all-powerful mega-corporations untouchable by the law and rampant pollution and illegal dumping of toxic chemicals, radioactive materials, murder and manipulation of the media to keep the people ignorant of the inevitable end of their world.