I guess it's a matter of opinion of what can be considered an incredible feat, and I certainly don't want to derail this thread by making this an argument. But I consider all of the LW's actions to be extremely heroic and badass, the sort of stuff that you see in an action movie, whereas Graham's survival, like you said, was downright miraculous. He didn't do as much, sure, an it wasn't exactly his intention either, but to me, his one famous moment was a more amazing event than anything the LW did.


Ultimately though, that's not really the point I was making. But you acknowledged that anyway. I think we can both agree that his story is far and away more unbelievable than Maxson's, but I've never heard anyone call it bad writing. As an example of a character who actually does take the initiative and perform incredible "player-character" level stunts, I'd put forward Father Elijah, who actually one-ups the player character in his dealings with the Big Empty and much of the Sierra Madre. Even if you don't think that the stuff he did can compare to the Courier, LW, or others (I personally do), you have to concede that it's of a similar caliber and certainly far greater than Maxson's alleged combat feats. And still, most folks consider it good writing.

Well I actually wasn't arguing Maxson's backstory is bad writing. Because I don't think we're intended to take it at face value. It reads like Quinlain glossied it up as a propaganda piece. Especially when he ends it with "He's the perfect human." I mean, clearly this isn't a completely unbiased historic work. And I think we're intended to see it as "Well is this stuff all true? Or is just some of it true and others are exaggerated?"

That's just my opinion on it anyway.

I disagree personally. But that's a debate for another time.

Same could say about BOS with death of Maxson. If the head scribe computer has a report and if has any truth about "ineffective elders."

Constitution Convention, make Diamond City the capital, SS or that old lady could order the training of full time units and training of individuals to train militia.

All fair. I've got no problems with refusing to take Quinlain as a 100% perfect source. I actually like Maxson and prefer the BoS ending over the other three, but I'm not gonna say that his top scribe calling him the perfect human isn't an obvious playing up of his character to make him out to be as great and heroic as possible.


Really, my response to you at all might've been somewhat off topic, because all I was picking at was this line from you:


"If a single NPC all of the things the protag does, we'd be calling it bad writing."


simply because I don't find it to be the case. It's not even really about Maxson. Though if Maxson or some other character DID do all of those things, and the game could somehow prove it, I wouldn't necessarily consider it bad writing. No more than I would the writing for Graham, Elijah, Ulysses, Lanius, and others who have performed actions that turned them into wasteland legends. It's all in how it's presented.


Granted, for this case, 13-year-old Maxson blowing up deathclaws with his angry stare is a questionable act considering there was nothing remarkable about him 2-3 years prior (although, those are his pubascent years and he could've changed a lot). Whereas we know that characters like Graham and the others became tough/clever/crafty/etc. over the course of their whole lives, and due to their upbringing (besides Graham, who seemed to have a sort of "waking of the beast" point as he worked with Caesar, but his whole pre-fiery baptism story is shrouded in myth and mystery anyway).


Ultimately, in Maxson's case, I think it's fair to believe either way. We'll never know the truth. And it's not unreasonable to believe he did do some or all of those things and that Quinlain's only contributions to his reputation were in the "he's so perfect" wording. However, because of that same wording, it is a source that deserves some scrutiny, and is I'd say it's equally fair to take other parts of it (particularly the deathclaw story, given that he's alone in it) with a grain of salt.

Here is the difference. The BoS after Lyons was weakened and the war on the super mutants was taking it's toll on them, the BoS Maxson created is much more strong and unified then Lyons's BoS was. Maxson's accomplishments and changes would have made it possible for the BoS to pick an effective leader. Maxson's BoS and the BoS after Lyons's are two different things.

What if people don't want to be drafted?

We will have to agree to disagree on the use of nukes as a plot device in FO4. I will personally mod this stupidity out of my game as soon as possible. Understand though, that I don't have a problem if the nuking is clearly presented as the only logical option.

For instance, if after your incursion with Elder Maxson into the Institute, the defending forces turned out to be much stronger. Cutting you and your strike team from the group now barely holding the relay point, you decide on a desperate attempt to sabotage the reactor and relay out.

However, even failing all that, I agree that factions should be taken as they are, warts and all. But in a RPG, the Player should be able to tangibly influence the direction of the faction.

You get to do some of that with the BOS, though not as much as I would like to see. And no, I don't want to turn them back into some vision of the Lyons BOS, that never really existed anyway.

Sadly, the Player is even more hamstrung with regards to influencing the other factions. You get to make a nice radio address with the Institute that then has no effect whatsoever.

And being 'General' of the Minutemen, borders on Bethesda griefing the Player.

Only Played a little Railroad, but it appears to be 'Des way or the Highway'.

Same could be say about Maxson, he loyalist weakened after the war on the Institute, raiders, supermutant and others they deem enemies. With the death of Maxson the BOS could descend into either a civil war, banditry, or retreat to Capital Wasteland waiting for another leader.

wild speculation is not a convincing argument. the brotherhood is trained military style, both in combat and in hierarchy. That's one of the first things Danse tells you: We're an army.

So, no. They won't go civil war and turn into raiders. They'll answer to Lancer-Captain Kells until the Institute/RR is wiped off of the face of the earth and a new Elder is chosen.

Nuking the Institute ensures that the knowledge and capability to produce Gen-3 Synths dies with the Institute, no need to spend time and energy hunting down every scientist, civilian & Synth.

Not destroying the tech would make little sense since that is why the Brotherhood is there, using the reactor to scourge clean the Institute is a sounder strategy than attempting to occupy the Institute and manually destroy the capability.

Agreed, if anything the Brotherhood is to prone to following their leaders without question so there is next to no possibility of them turning into Raiders (and the Outcasts are somewhat unique), nor is Maxson death and the destruction of the Prywden a mortal blow since the EC Brotherhood can apparently hold the CW and is probably maintaining outpost between the Commonwealth and the CW......so bloodied but probably still with more military capacity than their foes and now they REALLY hate the Railroad, Institute or Minutemen.

Kells wouldn't survive any of the Non-BoS endings unless you think he's immune to being blown up.

The point was that whoever is ontop of the totem pole will receive the entire Brotherhood's support until the next Elder is chosen.

True, but even assuming that the immediate BOS leadership all died with the Prwyden.....which is unlikely since there are Paladin and Knight Commanders in abundance in the field, all that this would mean is the withdrawal of the Remnants back to a safer location and then Maxson's successor would step up.

This is really off topic at this point.


I think the debate is about 'Step up to do what?'.

If they have any military knowledge, a tactical retreat is their only real option once Liberty Prime, Maxson, the Prydwen and most of the east coast leadership is gone.


The East Coast BoS will have suffered the most costly defeat in BoS history.

Incorrect.

My character is the leader the commonwealth deserves. I wish Maxson would recognize this and relinquish command of the Brotherhood and Pridwyn to me.

Its really for the best interest of my empir.......errrr..... people of the commonwealth...

I'd guess their defeat on the West Coast by NCR was much much larger than the loss of one elder and his immediate staff (and the troops at the airport/on the Prydwen)......I sincerely doubt that the detachment in Boston constitutes most of the east coast leadership of the East Coast BOS, not least since they are also apparently garrisoning the Capitol Wasteland and there are probably detachments holding outposts on route.

Its worth remembering that Maxson is leading one Division/Chapter of the Brotherhood and the detachment that is in the Commonwealth is fraction of the EC Brotherhood's strength (what percentage of the EC BOS are in the Commonwealth is anyone guess).

The loss of their Elder has happened before repeatedly, Maxson loss is a blow and the loss of Prime (again) is another blow......Prydwen I'd actually call an flawed experiment. its loss is mainly as a status symbol although its also useful as a means to refuel Vertibird in the air. So yes heavy blows and certainly a tactical withdraw would be necessary. Of course then we could then have a enraged Brotherhood launching a true crusade returning to wreak their vengeance, if only to re-secure Liberty Prime.

Apparently the East Coast BoS was so devoid of actual leadership that after several Elders they had to appoint a 16 year-old boy. And that was only four years before Fallout 4 started.

Sounds to me like they have a serious leadership problem, and a flexible chain of command unless Arthur was a Sentinel by the age 16. At this point they have become a cult of personality around Maxson, which don't often survive the fall of the despot. Especially considering Arthur's ancestry is a big deal and he has no known heir.

Total loss, perhaps. I kind of meant to say costliest battle but it got lost along the way since the costliest BoS battle was the loss to NCR at Helios One.


Kellis specifically says they don't have tons of manpower which is why they couldn't send out rescue and retrieval teams. The Prydwen is capable of moving the entire East Coast Division according to Kellis as well. This should give you a better sense of the size of the East Coast BoS. They don't have a whole secondary army sitting in the Capital Wasteland. This was Maxson's ideological war and he brought everything he could to bring down the Institute because he was on a righteous mission.


The Capital Wasteland BoS after this loss would probably end up closer to the Mojave branch.

The other factions might have to worry about some sort of Brotherhood attack follow Maxson's death. But my Director character feels pretty secure after hacking Prime and crashing The Prydwen into Logan Airport. By the end of the game, nothing remains of Prime, not even his head this time

Post-game you can here comments from The Institute scientists about developing http://imgur.com/kqEdwSp, and Advanced Systems has an http://fallout.gamepedia.com/The_Institute_terminals#Plasma_Weaponrydevelopment project in the works. Evan Watson also sends you on regular missions to obtain Brotherhood blueprints from the remnants scattered around the Commonwealth. Presumably, this blueprints are weapons/armor and possibly even vertibird schematics.

Likewise with Phase 3 up and running, The Institute has all the power it will ever need. Brotherhood forces returning to The Commonwealth to fight The Institute would likely find gobs of Institute power armored Synths armed with powerful plasma weaponry to fight. Any token force they'd send would be crushed.

I was referencing the wider BOS/NCR war rather than any one Chapter or Division which is the single costliest conflict the Brotherhood has ever experienced.

I don't remember anyone ever referencing in game that the Capital Wasteland had been abandoned and a major difference between the Mojave Chapter and the East Coast is the recruitment of wastelanders, The West Coast Brotherhood chapters have to breed new membership while the East Coast Brotherhood can make good their losses through new recruitment, provided that they retain a core of veterans to build around.

So if as its shown in the game, they are governing the region its highly unlikely that they have left their kingdom and the homes of their soldiers undefended.

I haven't finished a game with the Institute yet so I cannot argue any of that......although I have wondered why the Institute isn't using already using power armor for their Coursers at least since its so widely available.

I can name six despots off the top of my head; not that Maxson is one.

Well it appears to have gone downhill after the Elder Lyons died pretty rapidly......I'd say Maxson appointment is a little bit his accomplishments at such a young age and a lot of his 'holy' name which allowed him to bring the Outcasts back into the fold and remould the Lyons doctrine into a workable system. So his loss is going to be a heavy blow.....although that could also make him a very useful martyr.

If the death of Maxson becomes Canon, I won't be surprised if a new Maxson child (or more) is revealed to carry on the family tradition.

Yes and let's ignore the fact Maxson stopped a super mutant from unifying the D.C. super mutants and managed to devise a strategy to take out two behemoths, let's ignore he has numerous accomplishments before he became elder, let's ignore he repaired the schism between the outcasts and East Coast BoS. Even if the deathclaw story is false or exaggerated he still has a lot of accomplishments and going "Oh they're all lies" is just pulling the wool over your eyes.

They had a serious leadership problem because Lyons did so much that ended up hurting the group more then it did strengthening it, Lyons is responsible for tearing his own chapter in two and Maxson fixed it all. Maxson created a stronger BoS, a BoS that has a effective way to get new recruits.