A little while ago there was a thread all about Elder Maxon, his motives, and whether or not the man is a good leader or not.

It was a good thread! Quite a few people compared him to a certain German Chancellor from the '30s and '40s- most of that was just Godwin's Law, but there were a few good points too.

I did my own breakdown of the character, and came to a different conclusion, which I shared. Unfortunately the thread was near the post limit, so not that many people got to see it, and I was hoping for a little more feedback (good or bad). So:

Arthur Maxon is NOT Hitler. He is, in fact, King Arthur. There's actually quite a bit of evidence supporting this.

1. He leads a cadre of Knights in shining armor. These Knights fought amongst themselves until he came along and united them.

2. Danse is very much like Sir Lancelot. He's noble, brave, unflinchingly loyal, and the King's go-to guy. But, he lets his King down in the end, simply because of who (what) he is.

3. Quinlan is Merlin, more or less. He catalouges the King's "mighty deeds", and likely aggrandizes them. He builds Maxon's cult of personality to the point the man cannot be questioned, or challenged.

4. King Arthur famously slays a dragon, at a relatively young age. Maxon famously kills a deathclaw, also at a young age.

5. King Arthur's ship was called The Prydwen.

6. Maxon sounds like "saxon".

And there you have it. Thoughts? Opinions? Have I stumbled upon something here, or am I just an idiot?

Post away, y'all.

I think the reference is pretty obvious but I think Arthur Maxson, the character, and Quinlan are doing it intentionally.


The ship is named the Prydwen, named by Maxson himself.


Arthur is self-modeled after King Arthur because King Arthur slew monsters and united the realm into one kingdom. Quinlan is just helping to build the myth and is probably the original source.


Just like Edward Sallow started calling himself Caesar and modeled himself after a different historic figure.

Its pretty much been known since Fallout 3 that Maxson was going to be the King Arthur stand-in. The Arthurian tie-ins were thick in that game as well. I mean, the BOS leaders met at a round table in the 'great hall' for pete's sake. It wasn't exactly subtle.

When the name of the Prydwen became known it just confirmed our suspicious that Arthur was going to be the leader of the BOS in Fallout 4.

So yes, his namesake and references point to King Arthur. Is he actually a King Arthur figure? Debatable. I guess if the theme holds true, then Arthur Maxson's reign will end in the downfall of Camelot The Brotherhood.

And Maxon has eyes on his back that I totally can't steal anything from him at all.

This lol

I believe we may have guessed the cannon ending @.@ Im thinking the BoS time expired. Honestly its overdue. Just call BoS Goliath and SS David

I agree that comparing him to Hitler is a bit overboard, but he is unlikable all the same. He is completely unwilling to see that there is good in another person simply because they are not Human. Danse was probably his most loyal Paladin, and Maxson just doesn't give him a chance at all. I mean on one hand I can agree with banishing an unknown factor out of a high ranking Brotherhood position would be prudent, but he straight wants to kill Danse. There is no middle ground with the guy, he can't accept that there are Ghouls, super mutants, and synths who are just out to do the right thing or live a peaceful life. I mean heck, the Lancer Captain sends you to kill Virgil even though without his help you'd not have found how to get into the institute in the first place. More than likely he was under orders from Maxson or just caught up in his same toxic way of thinking. They are aware that he was working on the FEV and yet unaware that the man regretted the entire thing and took steps to see the research would be halted if not outright discontinued.

Don't even get me started on the things the brotherhood does as a whole, such as strong arming farmers into supplying their troops with food and such. Maxson is a despicable person and all I know is that the Brotherhood has fallen quite a bit from the faction I couldn't wait to join in the first couple of fallout games.

Whats the saying, "Die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain?

If Maxson is King Arthur, who is Mordred, and or Morgana Le Fey?

Yeah the Maxson>King Arthur thing is well established, as for the Godwins the stupidity of claim can simply be shown by many of the same people (making the claim) choosing the Institute ending as Canon, while ignoring the whole human experimentation thing.....which screams of hypocrisy since the Institue is much closer to the ideals that they accuse the Brotherhood of.

So Danse who could be reprogrammed with a command phrase and ordered to murder his friends and colleagues shouldn't be killed or exiled......instead he should be?

Also again Ghouls are never harmed by the Brotherhood (only hostile to everybody Ferals), friendly Super Mutants in the Commonwealth consists of two one of which is responsible for the numbers of Super Mutant in Boston and although he changed his mind was responsible for countless human experiments leading to those cannibalistic Super Mutants and the other who openly admits to wanting to eat someone. As for Synths there are no openly living as Gen-3, those that are in the Commonwealth are either Runaway Synths, reprogrammed RR Synths (unaware they are Synths), Institute Infiltrators (who have replaced people murdered or turned into super mutants) or Synth attackers. So yeah, since they are the main offensive arm of the Institute, Synths are and should be targets and its worth noting that there is no attempt to round up Gen-3 Synths in the population after the Institutes defeat.

Also the Brotherhood gives the player the job of securing food supplies, the player can choose to strong arm or murder settlers, the player can also charm them or simply buy the crops while the quest giver is willing to look the other way if you choose the less ethical route that doesn't follow that the Brotherhood is regularly strong arming settlers, that would be you....and if you don't do it, it never happened.

Reread what I wrote. I said exiling Danse would be a prudent move, you never know what the institute has planned for him. I was pointing out that up to now, he has been a loyal member of the brotherhood, so at least not outright killing him would be "something" and he could send him away if he wasn't sure, giving the man the benefit of the doubt. He is only spared through the intervention of your character. It is NEVER established that Virgil is responsible for the super mutants who inhabit the commonwealth, he was merely working on the virus at the behest of Father. He did not deploy it. I am almost certain that the mutants inhabiting the commonwealth are not from the institute. Nick is a synth who knows he is a synth, and everyone else knows it too, Glory is a later model synth who is fully aware she is a synth, and there may be others that the game simply doesn't touch on. Maxson's stance would be that they should die because of this fact alone, he is sort of a hardliner like that.

As for securing food, it is said you can use any means at your discretion to secure the goods, which of course can include intimidation and violence, otherwise they would have said to secure the goods through peaceful trade only. Which means they don't really give a damn how you do it, so long as it's done.

Yeah, Maxson is more Arthurian, however everytime I see those squires I can't help but think of the Hitler Youth. It's seems pretty obvious.

You're claiming the Maxson is wrong to want a infiltrating Synth killed, when that is the reason they are fighting the Institute......Danse is an clear and present danger it would be strange if his death wasn't ordered.

Virgil was in charge of the Super Mutant program with Zimmerman in the CW, why would you think otherwise. He eventually sabotages his own lab but he still responsible for those innocent victims.

Nick is a Gen-2 Synth and is not really relevant as he isn't a part of trying to infiltrate the Commonwealth and is left in peace by everybody included the Brotherhood.

Glory is a member of a secret organisation of pro Gen-3 Synth supporters. she is literally unknown to anybody but the RR.

As for the supplies it means the quest giver doesn't care since there is no evidence anybody but you know how you gained the supplies and he doesn't really care.......no evidence that Maxson (or anybody else) even knows about it.

Shutdown code is a shutdown code. Ayo explains this that it just wipes memories and turns the synth off. If they were to be turned on they would still have their personality matrix because that needs to be rebuilt within the institute and is a separate process.


Brotherhood tolerates the use of violence in getting crops. They actually say that they'll be sending troops to get the crops regardless of what you do so whatever deal you negotiate can only make the process more gentle, not less.


Maxson states that each Gen3 is a walking talking nuclear bomb. There is no reason to believe he would let any survive after the destruction of the Instiute. That's the same as saying that he lets super mutants live after their leader is dead.

This assumes that Danse is a RR reprogrammed Synth.....which Maxson has no way of knowing.

The only way they send the troops to pick up the crops is when you complete the mission successfully at which point they are a brotherhood resource, so claiming that you can only make the process more gentle is strange. If YOU don't arrange for the crops, the Brotherhood never gain the crops, that is kind of the point of the mission.

The troops also do supply runs to Diamond City without any claims that this is somehow anything other than normal commerce.

Does he, when exactly since I don't believe he ever says that in my playthrough.

There are no missions to capture the Gen-3s after the Institute is destroyed. There are no signs of any round up of possible Gen-3s and no effort is seen anywhere post-Institute to even suggest a search for Gen-3s. The only post Institute conflict with Synths is the remnants of Institute Synths attacking the checkpoints which are apparently gathering tech since they all seem to be at Power Armor locations.

You're told that persuasion by any means necessary is on the table. No idea how you manage to misconstrue that.


So Maxson is a liar and treasonous to the brotherhood in your opinion? He is allowing abominations that have the impact of nuclear weapons to exist with no effort to eliminate them? Interesting stance to take.

You are told by the quest giver, who is in charge of gaining the supplies to secure the crops and YOU can choose how you accomplish it again unless YOU choose to strong arm the settlements it does not happen in the game at all. I've no idea why you cannot grasp this, if you don't commit the act it never happens in the game as the Brotherhood never makes a move against the settlements but through YOU.

God that was weak, as I said

He regards them as a threat to human existence while they are infiltrating the human settlements and deals with that threat by destroying the Institute, you are the one making the claims that he wouldn't let any of them survive after the destruction of the Institute........

and as I have already wrote, there is no post Institute witch hunt, no rounding up of suspected Gen-3s etc.

That is just a fact, not an opinion.

The Brotherhood are presented as they are to insure that there are reasons to side against them, as any of the other three factions. As one of the most prominent faces of the franchise, which faction do you think most players would gravitate towards if they were presented as shining knights with no flaws? They probably still do, but in lesser numbers.

The Brotherhood are flawed. They have some deep seeded prejudices that they really, really need to get over. They also have a very paternalistic (and often condescending) attitude of 'we know better than any of you how to handle this technology'. In regards to the technology of the Institute, they're in the right. The Institute has committed multiple crimes against humanity with their technology, and Synths do represent a clear and present danger to Homo Sapiens as they are already being used to replace members of the civilian population.

It's not a matter of 'if' the Institute loses control of Gen3 synths (or synths in general). Or even when. They already have, and don't realize it. There are multiple synths still within the Institute organizing an escape. The Railroad wouldn't exist without the inability of the creators to control the created. Ignoring the 'are they sentient?' debate and just stating -- one way or the other, the Institute's grasp on their own slaves has already slipped, and it's the player who determines how bad it gets.

The Brotherhood's zealotry and fanaticism is meant to be offputting, and it very much is so at times. It's like that in the other games as well. They're hardasses because they think they're right. Similar to their opposites in the Railroad and the Institute. Both other organizations justify their failures (Gabriel turning raider) and their crimes (FEV experimentation) in the light of 'they are doing what needs to be done and what is right' -- nevermind those eggs that got cracked for that omelette.

On the other hand, the examples that get used against the Brotherhood the most -- Danse's fate and Teagan's moral ambivalence -- are nowhere near as negative as is frequently portrayed.

Danse is confirmed, through irrefutable DNA evidence, to be a Synth. The Brotherhood has no way to know when that happened, what Danse's true purpose is, or if he's a mind wiped Railroad refugee and essentially safe. Maxson absolutely makes the right call to have him executed as a potential threat. For all he knows Danse is either a spy (and all their plans are compromised) or a saboteur that will try to destroy the Prydwen or an assassin that will shoot him or his senior staff the next time they see each other. Danse even admits how much worse he made it all by going AWOL instead of facing the music -- and he did. That was the absolute wrong move on his part. That Maxson is able to be talked down to commuting the death sentence to exile shows that even in the heat of the moment he can listen to reason.

As a player, I like Danse a ton, but even I can see that Maxson wasn't wrong here. He presents the command like any military commander would -- you will do this because it is my order -- but even when faced with insubordination and highly emotional himself over feeling betrayed, he does listen to what's being said. Danse can be spared and be allowed to live without being specifically hunted down (just subject to attack if crossing paths with a patrol or entering a BoS facility).

Teagan, though, is definitely a grey area. Lancer-Captain Kells, the second in command of the expedition, explicitly states that the Brotherhood is on orders to be on their best behavior to make a better impression on the Commonwealth. That they expend so much material and manpower on putting down threats to civilians with their vertibird patrols shows just how dedicated they are to that directive. Teagan, likely, is being borderline insubordinate himself by making his life easier by letting those working for him use 'whatever means necessary' to reduce his workload and make sure the supplies are brought in. At the same time, his toleration of immoral methods of procuring crops doesn't force the player to do it that way, as there is both the option to convince the farmers it's the right thing to do or simply to pay them a fair price for the crops.

To give you an idea of what the prototypical BoS member thinks about the quest is the fact that the only outcome in the quest that will get a 'Liked That' response from Danse is paying the full purchase price without haggling it down. That's likely the first choice of most knights, considering how much Danse models the 'ideal' prior to Blind Betrayal. Haggling, Convincing, or Threats are neutral. Murder, of course, is not ok with Danse. As tolerant as Teagan is of the various tactics for this quest, though, it's the Survivor who chooses how it ends, and that responsibility lies on them, not Teagan.

The real debate, I think, is over the quest Tactical Thinking and the order Kells gives to take down the leadership of the Railroad. With the desire to destroy as many Gen3 synths as possible when the Institute is destroyed (by insuring they never escape), the Brotherhood performs what is their most questionable act while in the Commonwealth. There is no way to influence the quest like with Feeding the Troops. Here, once the quest is accepted and the Old North Church entered, it can only end with the death of Desdemona and the entire leadership of the Railroad. There's no way to warn them, or to spare them. They will already be hostile to the player before they even leave the Prydwen.

As a person, I feel it was excessive. At the same time, I can see the Railroad was a threat, as they certainly have the ability to plant a bomb on the Prydwen as shown in Rocket's Red Glare. It's about whether they survive the raid on the Old North Church HQ -- and if the player sides with the Brotherhood, that is not a possibility. Also, if you do not view the Gen3s as 'people', then it does make sense to insure they're all in the biggest group possible for ease of destruction, even if it's done in a very heavy handed way.

Good post

I'd certainly agree that the Brotherhood are flawed, hell everybody is flawed otherwise there would be no need for the player to help out the factions. The Brotherhood would simply overpower the area, the Railroad would be much more competent freedom fighters, the Institute wouldn't bring in an outsider and give them free run of their top secret base and the Minutemen wouldn't appoint a general and then expect that general to be a one man army.

Also actually given that the Brotherhood makes no attempt to root out the remain Gen-3 after the destruction of the Institute, the destruction of the Railroad makes little sense, beyond as a pre-emptive strike to prevent them attacking the Brotherhood.

I would have liked the option to tell them to scatter rather than having to kill them off personally......I actually reloaded a few times as I tried to find a way not kill them, but there was no peaceful option.

What he says is that they are a greater threat to humanity than nuclear weapons. When you have manufactured creations that are stronger, faster and smarter than humans, don't need to eat, drink or sleep, are capable of passing as human, and can disobey their creators/operators, you have a recipe for disaster. Such things turning on humanity is a common theme in film and literature. Once there gets to be enough of them, there would be nothing anyone could do about it. The only way to avoid it is to nip it in the bud before it can become a problem.


And while there are examples of AIs that don't try to wipe out humanity, what do you do? Do you sit around and wait to find out which one it is? By the time you figure it out, it could be too late to do anything about it.

That's not the argument but thanks for pointing out why Maxson's desire to wipe out synths doesn't end with the destruction of the Institute. The Brotherhood just doesn't have any means to hunt them down but that doesn't mean they tolerate them.

With the destruction of the Institute the means of synth production are also destroyed. The number of synths already present within society doesn't pose a serious threat to humanity.

Without the ability to make more of themselves, the synths will slowly whittle down through attrition. While they may be functionally immortal, they can still die to violence and accidents and over the years those will take their toll on the small numbers left.

This is awesome.

But doesn't stop Maxson from being a jerk...

Agreed and the lack of ageing will prevent them from staying within human communities long term without them being discovered, which must be dangerous for those re-programmed Gen-3s who have no idea that they aren't human.

Also the Brotherhood does have that data about the Gen-3s, that is how they identify Danse who would have passed numerous medicals as human.........so they should have the capability to hunt down all the Gen-3s if that was a priority.