I don't know if this is the right place for it.

When the Lord of the Rings movies came out I didn't care for it, science fiction was my genre, not fantasy, and I didn't get the whole point of hobbits and elves and other things that were basically humans but slightly altered in appearance (this was always my biggest beef with Star Trek). The plot about the ring and other things happening in the story didn't move me either, although I've always liked Gimli and Gollum.

Anyway... getting off topic. After having played the Elder Scrolls and other RPG's, videogames have been the major exception for my interest in the fantasy genre. Recently I had the chance to watch The Hobbit again, something I remember from my childhood, and being in a fantasy mood from playing Oblivion so much I felt like watching the LOTR movies again for the heck of it.

Well, I was surprised by how many things in Middle Earth reminded me of things in Tamriel. Now just magic and elves but things like mithril, which I remember seeing in Final Fantasy as well but when I saw the mithril Frodo wore it looked just like the armor in Oblivion. In fact after looking it up it seems it was Tolkien's invention but it was never trademarked. Even the weapons the elves use look the same, golden and curvy in appearence. The idea about Orcs having been elves once was also present in the Elder Scrolls (orismer or corrupted elves, right?), and dwarves and goblins being related. Mordor totally reminds me of Dagoth Ur, I don't think I need to go into detail about why, and Sauron and Dagoth Ur themselves are a "great evil" from the past that came back to threaten the world. There were so many other things but I can't remember them now.

I don't know, like I said fantasy is not my genre so these might just be common elements in all high/epic fantasy. The similarities just struck me, and I think because of the Elder Scrolls I enjoyed LOTR a lot more. There are major differences of course, for instance Elder Scrolls seems to focus on elves a lot more , not being immortal but common and numerous, with many different types, etc.

If this is in the wrong forum just move it, thanks.

Heh, these similarities are hardly limited to The Elder Scrolls. TES inherits these tropes by way of Dungeons and Dragons. I don't know if the guys that made D&D drew directly from Tolkein, or indirectly via yet another derivative, but when it comes right down to it, much of the imagery Tolkein pioneered ended up becoming the staples of an entire genre.

I'm starting to understand this now.

Apparently Tolkein originally came up with mithril, orcs, ents, halflings, etc, and while he didn't invent elves he did create the wiser human-height elves we see in fiction now.

I have yet to play D&D, and I've been dying to for the longest. But I need the game and people who are willing to play it.

As far as I'm concerned D&D started the RPG genre.

The fantasy genre itself is rife with similarities to LOTR as that was always a major influence. It's not limited to TES. Personally I don't see much similarities, unless you count that there are Elves and Orcs. The Orcs in TES aren't evil, though.

That is basically it. All those things in Elder Scrolls that resemble the Lord of the Rings have been staples in the fantasy genre for a long time now. Having read numerous fantasy books and played numerous fantasy games, I have found this to be the main complaint I have with the genre. Instead of trying to be original many authors just reuse concepts that were already established, or borrowed and developed into their present form by Tolkien. The fantasy genre should have the most room of any for creativity, since it establishes its own world with its own laws, as opposed to conforming to the rules of the real world, or extending known science (and occasionally changing some laws of it.) and yet the current state does not do it justice.

And I never understood the appeal of elves, dwarves Star Trek style aliens or other types of non-human lifeforms that basically are like humans with minor cosmetic differences. If you want to make a fictional race, either make them look distinctly different from humans or have them be in the same species.

Right, exactly. I'm glad I'm not alone on this one. It's one of the reasons I prefer Star Wars over Star Trek, the aliens are unique and vastly different. In Star Trek all you need to make an alien is make someone's ears pointy or paint a birth mark on their face, and voila!

You know the Vulcans are just elves in spaaaaace, right? That's because like Star Trek, the races aren't meant to be other races, they're us, and always going to be us. Except when they're not us, in which case they're still trying to say something about us. Hrm, anyway, if you're familiar with space opera, then you'll know it also shares some things in common with the epic fantasy genre. And Star Wars; you realise, that's just epic fantasy in spaaaace, right? It's by-the-numbers monomyth, by Lucas's own admission.

The tropes you're talking about - elves, dwarves, evil lords - are robbed somewhat of their vitality when they're treated like a meme by people mistaking a metaphor for the literal. Tolkien's elves are pre-fall Man, which is why he deliberated for so long over the corrupted elves orc origin. Hobbits are the comfortable bourgeoisie, dwarves were dour and hardworking protestants (maybe), and Tolkien's myths are permeated by a profoundly Roman Catholic point of view. A generation that fell in love with his world but couldn't ever match him because they never achieved his ideological fervour used his elements as if believing they could remake a beautiful old coat from a strand of loose thread.

The result of the propagation of his tropes is interesting. Where science fiction as a genre tends to be terribly inventive, but usually works by holding up a techno-mirror that ages your face x years, thereby showing truth about the present by using the future as an example (Harlan Ellison, Philip K dike), much of epic/high fantasy is stuck in a setting removed from any considerations of the present, set in a mythical age that largely repeats the same story again and again, either to reiterate the stories of heroes or to reaffirm the familiar archetypes. But, as I wrote earlier, so many of such stories lack any sense of vision, and more likely than not, are written by people for whom symbolism and other associations is something they actually want to avoid, though literary theory says that's impossible, so much fantasy comes across as shallow, and no laborious amount of worldbuilding can hide the fact that these hacks have a passion for fantasy as an end in itself, instead of a means in itself as a way of expression.

Still, what I like about the Elder Scrolls is that it isn't devoid of ideological associations. Dagoth Ur may very well be clearly a baddie, but he is much more than an irredeemable Evil Lord some humanist fantasy writer has taken from someone else's manichean belief system. Dagoth Ur is a sympathetic character, and his motives go back to the establishment of the nation of Veloth itself as a holy land for dissident Aldmer. The High Elves themselves, though they represent the powerful race tumbling into decadence so common to other fantasy stories, their conservativism and pride is not without philosophical justification, as they take a gnostic distaste to the material world, a worldview which I enjoy reading about and to which I can somewhat sympathise. The surprises and quirks of walking around these ideological mindscapes and being greeted by familiar or unfamiliar surprises are what make me come back to TES as opposed to other similar fantasy books. Tolkien's included, as I could never really sympathise with his approach. But, to be honest, to quote MK, "I hate fantasy. Except, you know, the good stuff."

Edit: And if any [censored] even reads all that, let alone agrees with me, I'd be very surprised.
Edit2: Parsing.

Those things were ripped directly from the movies to get non-TES folk interested, and convince everyone that TES was LOTR. (Particularly obvious when you consider their previous appearances in the TES games)


While you are very right, I think that kinda thinking only applies to the good folks like yourself who put that much thought into books you read. While I'd love to be able to have that kinda mindset, I do also enjoy a plain, simple, corking good yarn for its own sake. (Which, really, is what non-Lore Forum TES is)

(Well, actually some elements of that claim are debatable )

Even though I feel a bit silly to post this after Albides' post, my nit-picking urges are too much for me:
Orc is an "Old English" word, if I'm not mistaken, meaning "demon", or "evil spirit" or something like it. Though Tolkien might have (probably) given them "shape", I have to admit, as I have no idea how they were described back then.

And the Tolkien version of elves is how they used to appear back in the good old ages. Nordic mythology, for example, and probably English folk lore too. They then changed into the small ("santa-ic") elves over time. Possibly merging with another folk lore creature. Tolkien just changed them back.

Oh, and Ents are just tree spirits. :meh:

Orc came from the latin (probably) word "orkus" which means unpleasantness.

The Spriggans are the missing Entwives!

Oh, come on, don't say you weren't expecting it.

Actually, Orcs were around in fantasy stories as somethign before, he just made them famous.

Pre-Oblivion ES (read. the real ES games) were only aesthetically simmilar, and even then only every once in a while. Oblivion was just LOTR with the names replaced.

Boo.

D&D's main inspirations were pulp novels and writers such as R.E. Howard, E.R. Burroughs, A.E. Van Vogt, Fritz Leiber, Poul Anderson, Jack Vance... From Tolkien, D&D only took a few elements: hobbits, wargs, ents and mithril are the only ones who were genuinely lifted from Tolkien (and they had to rename them halflings, worgs, treants, and mithral under pressure from the Tolkien Estate). Other stuff, like orcs or giant eagles or werebears, was in Tolkien, true, but he was hardly the source for them.

These things are now generic fantasy tropes, they're as inherent to the genre as fireball spells.

If you compare TES, LotR, and, say, The Brother Kamarazovs, you'll be excused for saying "TES == LotR". But if you stay within the fantasy genre and compare directly TES to LotR, you'll find out they are very different; and not just because of minor cosmetic details like the shape of elven ears. (Speaking of which: there isn't a single line in Tolkien's writing saying that elves have pointed ears. That trope's prevalence in modern fantasy comes from D&D.)

First before I go on topic what the hell race was Sauron anyway? (Something I can't seem to find anywhere yet it is a rather simple thing to ask for, I believe.)

Comparing Red Mountain to Mord?r is blaspheme! :swear:

Debatable indeed. The ES game plots are pretty crappy when viewed out of context with their universe, which is all lore is.

So you're not here for a good yarn, you're here to write your own. Hence the premise of the series.

Edit: Sauron was Maia

Easy blasphemy, at that.

Wasn't Sauron a "human" or something and the general to their "evil god" thingy?

Don't ask questions like that! You'll open floodgates for narrative drivel from all Lotr fans.

Sauron was a corrupted spirit servant who chose to serve Melkor, the original baddy.

Ah yes then I was right.

And forget my question... I'll hide it for the keepers of LOTR.

Argh... forgotten the darn name of it... lol

Sauron was a Maia (pl. Maiar), and Morgoth was a Vala (pl. Valar). If you want a level of comparison, the Istari ("wizards") Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and co. were Maiar too, as well as the Balrogs. Maiar are servant spirits to the Valar. You could roughly think of them as angels and archangels, with Eru Iluvatar on the top as God. This comparison would make of Morgoth a Demon Prince and Sauron simply a Demon.

Or, more fittingly, Morgoth as Lucifer and Sauron simply as lesser fallen angel.

About the references to the armor and art in Oblivion being somewhat similair to Lotr.

Well yeah. http://bp3.blogger.com/_8NrC-vnt4-U/Ro55AyfQOBI/AAAAAAAAAAM/CtAequrKh3s/s1600-h/wedidnotmakescreencaps.jpg

With anything in the genre "fantasy" its very hard not to rip off Tolkien in some way or another, the man basically invented it, or at least as the way we know it today, and people just arent that creative anymore.

Elder Scrolls has kicked those cliques in the teeth and kicked 'em good. But Oblivion's design team accidentally shredded the memo.

No. If we're talking epic fantasy specifically, then maybe. But no in all other respects.