I am bored, and this forum is boring, so I bring you a question...

Basically I wanted to find the philosophy, the essence, the basic behind TES world. So I reread Monomyth, and found...

"In Mundus, conflict and disparity are what bring change, and change is the most sacred of the Eleven Forces. Change is the force without focus or origin."-Oegnithr, Taheritae, Order of PSJJJJ

What is this Eleven Forces? One is for sure CHANGE, what's the other? If CHANGE is one of them, then the oposite should be there, STASIS. Perhaps TIME is one of the forces, as well as CHAOS?

Anyone knows more on this topic?

Eleven = 1+1.

11 = 2

You've answered your own question.

Its your library, aren't you the one that's supposed to know these things? That said, great to see you around. :foodndrink:


I don't think there is anything else stated on the topic, and while we could no doubt have random speculation the only place I could think the answer might be hidden would be in the Sermons, but its been too long since I've read them... The only thing that I would point out is that Stasis/Change, Time/Chaos are essentially the same forces, just being implemented differently...


It doesn't really make sense in context for Change to be the most sacred of only two forces.

As I said I am bored haha... I am not the ALL-KNOW you know. Beside, I left TES for sooo long, busy adventuring in the capital wasteland.

Edit: Damn my english is a little bit rusty these days.

Per your own Library: "A complete list of the Eleven Forces is not very well known outside of the Order. The only one that has received publicity outside of Artaeum is Change."

=P so we don't even know if Stasis is one of the forces. Might be, might not be. Would be reasonable to assume it is, but assumptions aren't a healthy thing.

Well, I'm pretty sure you'd know better than anyone on this forum. Except maybe Michael Kirkbride, but I think he just likes to confuse people.

It'd probably be unhealthy to so much as guess what the other forces are. Change itself is such an open-ended word that it's hard to say what goes along with it.

Hey, Xan!

I remember someone trying to create a list of the Eleven Forces a long while ago. I wonder if we can dig it up. I also remember it being rather difficult to come up with eleven good ones.

HI XAN

And that's really all I have to offer.

Haha... love to see you all.

Where are the loremasters these days?

I just want to make this forum to live just like the old days when lots of people tried to "translate" the words of MK. Or trying decipher the Dwemer alphabet. Miss those days...

So... let's speculate. Give me the list of eleven forces!

Maybe it's like a descending list. You start with Stasis, then you go to Change, which continues on down until you reach the last one. Which, no doubt, is CHIM because everything has to end with CHIM...or Muatra.

How is that? I always saw 11 Forces as numerological, because, for one, change itself can encompass a lot of things. And I've never seen anything in any other text that could suggest that there are 10 other forces. But at the same time, you could know something I don't, and I'm totally open to that.

And I guess you're referring to the "bad change" statements http://www.imperial-library.info/gttpo/. I don't see how makes my idea seem "out of context" because that's talking about, well, bad change. And it makes a lot of sense to me seeing as the Psijic Order is dedicated to, well, PSJJJJ.

edit: if I am wrong, then I would immediately want to say that Oegnithr itself is one of these forces, but the Guide itself states that only one of these forces is recorded in outside sources and it completely ignores Oegnithr.

Xanathar, it's good to see your name here. Many of the forum veterans have moved on, including Solin, Allerleirauh, and Rhedd. I don't think the forums will be as good as they once were -- it was like the old phrase "catching lightning in a bottle".

In my opinion we won't know what the 11 forces are; it's probably a throwaway line by the devs, and trying to speculate is pointless. That's only my take on it, though. Thanks again for the Imperial Library.

Hi Xan!


While I'm very much intrigued with the 11 = 1 + 1 = 2 Forces = Stasis and Change idea, this is numerology, which is Michael's field of expertise. However, the Psijiic Order (and the text the quoted passage is contained) is Tedders' baby and he isn't so much into numerology, at least not from my experience.

Nontheless, as I said, I find that a thought worth of further pursuit:
Considering the subcreation of Mundus, I'd actually go off on a limb and say that the 1 + 1 = Eleven = Stasis and Change was true until said subcreation began, splitting the former "two" principles into many - numbering eleven singular forces "today", but still containing the essence of the original 1 + 1. Just as many of Mundus' themes can be traced back to the events of the first creation.

I agree with the others that STASIS could (should) be part of the eleven, another force, which coincidentally relates to the struggle between Stasis and Change in the myths, would in my opinion be LOVE.

As to Oegnithr - considering the text, Oegnithr is "bad change", which is just a subjective (from a Psijiic's viewpoint) form of judging "change". I don't count it as an actual force belonging to the "Eleven Forces".

Ah. Didn't know about that Tedders bit.

If I don't get too sidetracked with college, I'm probably going to start looking into this extremely interesting list.

I'm interested in the place of Love between Stasis and Change. It's an integral part of the enantimorph that sub-created, and also integral in stopping an uncreation, "Know Love to avoid the Landfall."

Okay, let's speculate:

Love - I agree with Nalion.

Hope - Is that a force, though?

Both of those seem like qualities of man, though, would they necessarily be in the same league as change?

I think Vivec makes it pretty clear that Love is one of, if not the most important element in the world.


Its just that you don't say things like the "most sacred" or a "complete list" when you're only talking about two things.

Vivec also parades around as a God.

But what makes Change a force, Daedra? So then your guys' conclusion is that Stasis must be another. But do Aedra and Daedra fall under a larger umbrella, and are there other beings that represent love, or, do Aedra or Daedra feel love at all?

Vivec iswasis a God, and is very wise.

You've got Change, attached to Daedra and Padomay, manifested in Oblivion, and Stasis, associated with Aedra and Anu, manifested in Aetherius. They're the two forces that shaped the universe, opposing parts of a mad Godhead. Every myth corroborates this in its own way.

I understand that, but is love associated with anything but mortals?

...I dunno about Vivec being all that wise. Dagoth Ur pulled the rug out from under him, despite having big disadvantages, and he even admits himself that Dagoth is smarter and more resourceful than him. He may be above the level of most mortals, but he's not on the level of any of the 'real' gods. I don't think any of them are really as sentimental as he is.

Also, 11 means 3 in binary. Just in case that might have any significance.

It also means 4 in a base 3 system and 5 in a base 4 system. I don't see what the significance is.

Yes. http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#35. (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml is probably more relevant, though it quotes that text extensively.)


He's above the 'real' gods. Heard of/know what CHIM is? CHIM is probably the greatest wisdom.