The thing that made the deadra so effective as enemies is that looked so evil or menacing, dark, and firey. You could easily point your finger and say "Hes the enemy", "hes the bad guy". But I didnt get that with the mythic dawn or bandits. With the mythic dawn I just saw "elf, elf, human, nord, human, meh" they didnt realy seem that menacing and wernt easily recognisable compared to the citizens of Cirodiil (Which they were). And you would expect a bandit to be running around in tattered clothing or just wearing fur armour at the most. But because of the leveled loot system in Oblivion, I couldnt tell anyone apart. I see a guy walk towards me with a grin on his face, hes wearing flowing robes and deadric armour. "Hello" I say, he then draws his fine steel long sword "Oh.. you want my lunch money?". Or the realy stupid highway men who run up to you with a butter knife and demand coin from you, you, a nordic warrior kitted out in deadric armour and weilding an axe twice the size of his head.

Mancar Camoran was just a turd. The big bad evil guy who pulls all the strings turned out to be a pissy little high elf. And the same thing with the Mages Guild bad guy, Manimarco, who also turned out to be a pissy little elf as well. The only bad guy in the game who realy matched his description was Mehrunes Dagon him self.

So, What do you want form your enemies. What tells you "Oh he looks like he needs to be dead very soon". or "That man there is a big firey man eating monster and he looks hungry, maybe I shouldnt bother him". or "yup thats the bad guy, I can spot him a mile away".

What Are your thoughts?

Who my enemies are should depend on who I am.

If all the bad guys look like demons and all the good guys look like angels, that would just be cheesy.

The reason bandits look like people is because that's what they are. The reason Dremoras (what you describe as daedra) look menacing is because Dagon designed them. Not all daedra look menacing.

Well, I think an issue with Oblivion was that it was very apparent very quickly that the leveling was broken. You figured out pretty fast that you could kill any enemy (that wasn't Umbra) at just about any level.

Really broke the feeling of dread when seeing an enemy.

What I would like to see is that the spawning system is that it "bleeds" strong enemies into lower levels. What I mean by this is that enemies essentially all have a level value attached to them. Not a level value for them, but a value for what level you must be to soundly beat them. The game would occasionally spawn an enemy with a HIGHER level value than your current level, just to put some cautious fear into you. It would be something like running into a golden saint at level 5. You'd run like hell before you got your ass beat into the ground.

And, of course, I'd like to see more static challenges that don't change. You show up at level 1, the enemy is level 20. You show up at level 15, they're still level 20.

Fallout 3 felt pretty good in terms of its leveling system. It still provided challenge and some good scares here and there, but I think that it could really use more static challenges and other forms of random spawns that aren't leveled based on appropriateness (You're in a Daedric ruin so the game randomly spawns 1 or 2 enemies off of a list. They aren't scaled at all, just randomly picked. Sometimes its some scamps, sometimes its a Dremora High Warlord with an enchanted claymore ready to put the smack down on you).

I've yet to find a cuddly deathclaw.

Though I'll disagree on the bandits, they definatley should've looked more rugged and dirty.

I prefer how Fallout 3 did bandits (raiders). Their armor should look like a mishmash of rusty/dirty pieces that they obviously put together themselves. It'd be cool if there was a specific set of armor that was unique to bandits.

Indeed; Aureal and Mazken, were it not for their eyes, could probably pass for Altmer and Dunmer, respectively; and they don't look too out of place next to the mortal races of Tamriel. For that matter, a Dremora dressed as a commoner wouldn't look too out of place, either, but they do have that "evil face" thing going for 'em that Golden Saints and Dark Seducers don't. Also the horns.

Bandits don't have a sense of "Oh my god I smell like a pile of troll dung!" (AKA Scent)? They'd still bathe every once in a while.

Anyway, I think that there should be some enemies you don't know are enemies until you get close enough. Bandits and Thieves for instance, you can't tell them apart from an adventurer until you get close. Bad people don't emit evil, like they make them do in movies or games. Necromancers just had to wear black robes with skulls and bones on them made in red, didn't they? And they had to always say things like "I'll make your bones dance, and then tear yourself apart.". It'd be nice if for a chance the people you're going against could be the kind of people who believe they're doing good. Mannimarco tried to imply that the Necromancer faction and the Mages Guild were after the same things, but the Mages Guild doesn't run into Obviously Evil caves to hide in with reanimated corpses of innocent civilians laying everywhere, and they don't always trick you into going someplace in the middle of the night so that they can kill you in secret. There was a [i]very[i/] big "Black and White" situation with enemies in Oblivion.

In the Thieves Guild the Imperial Legion took taxes from the Waterfront Members early on (It's been mentioned that they never do because collecting the money would barely cover the cost of collecting it in the first place), the Necromancers destroyed a peaceful grove of people making staffs for new mages, Blackwood would kill whole entire settlements of people for stuff... and then you got to play on the Obviously Evil side in the Dark Brotherhood with people worshiping and entity of death and saying "Shed some blood for me.". I just wish we could get a "Good Gone Bad" scenario, like some people who believe they're helping the world out when they're causing more harm than good.

I think some enemies should be shocking that they're enemies, and some should be obvious.

Bandits in The Elder Scrolls V need to look more like bandits they look no different to a wealthy noble wearing leather armour. They need to be dirty, rough murderers. Fallout 3 did this well with just adding dirt to their faces and giving them different hairstyles to city folk, along with tattered armour unique to them.

It's not even really about the greater good in real-life scenarios. The majority of the characters would have their own personal selfish reasons for their actions.

I think what they were going for, in Morrowind and Oblivion was a mis-guided, good intentioned guy, as you say. But, the problem is that this guy always has minions who are purely black-hearted and everyone else just agrees that they should get along until he's been destroyed.

In my opinion, a more realistic depiction of Oblivion's scenario would be something like this:

The throne is up for grabs, so innovations are in the minds of all the factions of Cyrodil. Some counts are retaining loyalty to the council in the palace, some counts are planning to go for the throne, themselves. The Mythic Dawn wants to aid Dagon because they feel an empire run by the daedra would be best.

The leaders of the peasants and criminals are probably taking this opportunity to sack and loot the neglected cities.

Jauffre would more realistically not send you to battle daedra, right away. But, maybe send you as a representative of the Blades, along with some fellow legates, to try and persuade the people of the different districts of Cyrodil that it would be in their best interest to retain their loyalty in this volatile time and not riot or revolt.

Over the course of the main quest, you would get an opportunity to listen to the views of each faction and maybe decide, in the end, who ultimately gets the book and the amulet.

:D

'Twould be an amazing main quest, the Mythic Dawn wanted Nirn destroyed so that Dagon could rule and they'd get their little "Paradise"

That is so Marshall Applewhite, though.

What I'm saying is that a realistic cult of Mehrunes Dagon would know that he is the prince of destruction, but also of ambition and innovation and change.

That little Bosmer was mortified when you told him the truth about the Mythic Dawn, which paints it as an evil, brainwashing underground cult. When, I believe it should be a legitimate mystery cult that worships a legitimate god, which has been a part of Tamriel's culture for thousands of years.

The Imperials could view him as an affront to the true gods and the Lord of Blooshed, as the Dunmer did in Morrowind. However, his worshippers should know better and he shouldn't be a big, bad sadist because that's Molag Bal's job.

Just my two cents.

I always did try to figure out how they recruited.

But, to be fair, Dagon has a lot of lore behind him, (he used to be happy and kind). He isn't necessarily a sadist, because he's centered around destruction. He'll blow something up and destroy it, and he doesn't particularly care what he has to do to do it.

They wanted to do it for... basically eternal life. You get to live forever if you join... I could see many Elves loving that idea.

I suppose that makes sense, but it would still be cool if you could help the Mythic Dawn.

And what about his original worshippers who have been honoring him since before he went all rogue and decided to destroy all the mortals? I'd think there would be a lot going on behind the scenes to try and get him to change his mind and spare Nirn, the same way people used to try and appease their gods to prevent natural disasters.

That's an opportunity for another side to the story, meaning more depth and drama.

I generally see enemies as

"They look at me funny, KILL THEY ASS!!!"

I think you'll enjoy http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g263/YessMasster/RealMannimarco.jpg.

I agree with you in a way, but I don't want my random run of the mill bandits to look like hellspawn. I like how Bloodmoon handled it. I could easily distinguish a Beserker, and even a Fyrse Hag from any random joe.

I want it to stay as it is, though, but, my crosshair should change colour when it targets an enemy. Would make my character's life so much easier.

I agree, but Daedra aren't gods, they are the things they embody. If there were no Destruction, Change, and Ambition, there would be no Dagon. If there were no Dagon, there would be no Destruction, Change, and Ambition. They all play hand-in-hand. So you really can't change him and make him want to spare the world. They provide these concepts (like Destruction, Ambition, etc.) with a physical form.

If you're worshiping Dagon, you're worshiping the existence of Destruction, Ambition, and Revolution. Just like if you worship Sheogorath, you're worshiping existence Madness. The Princes just give it a tangible form. So the worshipers of Dagon would know what they're getting themselves into, and Mankar Camoran (He may actually be part Bosmer and part something else) did a lot of brainwashing... he mighta been crazy himself.

Play the first Fallouts, there are friendly deathclaws. I agree that my enemies should depend on who I am, Daedra are not even evil really, there just people from a different plane of existence. i mean I should know, I am a Daedra.

That's an interesting theory. But, Dagon wasn't always how he is now. He was actually a nice guy. I wonder, can a god take another god's place? Did Dagon take the place of the Greedy Man? Or is the tale of the Greedy Man and the Leper King even canon?

I use a mod which name I can't remember but that adds random encounters, such as adding new "no-name NPCs" (so to say) that will randomly attack you in order to rob you or something and I think that that kind of stuff is really cool and should be added in future games.

That's how gods were viewed in the old days. As in, when the sun moved across the sky, the Greeks would say he (Helios) moves, not it moves.



Sorry for picking apart here, but just like Dagon represented the potential destruction of Nirn and the mortals, he also represented the destruction of the Aylieds that let the empire became what it is in the first place. If he is, indeed, the embodiment of all destruction.

So destruction isn't always bad... change and ambition aren't always bad... and if there's something good in it for him, I don't see why he can't be prayed to to halt destruction and maybe even focus that destruction elsewhere.




As I said above, I'm a big nerd about religion and mythology and I can tell you this is exactly how the old gods work. People wouldn't worship destruction and change because they are self destructive, they would worship it because of its potential benefits.

And if that destruction they were worshipping starts to destroy them instead of their enemies, they will become confused and pray to it and sacrifice to it to try and appease it.

In the case of Mankor Camoran, this is a man who twists religion and preaches lies in order to brainwash people. Maybe he made a deal with Dagon, but that doesn't mean someone less evil could make a more tempting deal with Dagon and convince him to destroy Mankor Camoran instead of destroying Nirn.

Why not? Destruction is destruction.

EDIT: I thought of a better way to phrase my thoughts. When you weed and plough a field or dig a foundation for a building, you are destroying what nature put there in order to change that plot of land into something that benefits you.

So, Mehrunes Dagon (Destruction and Change) plays a vital role in the harvest and the building of an empire and, indeed, everyday life. Mold destroys your wall so it has room to grow, then you destroy mold so you can restore your wall. Dagon represents the endless cycle of ridding the old to make room for the new and to try and stop destruction is as foolish as to try and stop the rotating of the planet.

If destruction and change are no more then, yes, Nirn will last forever, but also, no one will age and trees will forever grow and take over the cities and there will be no means to clear the land for civilization ever again.

It would be better to pray to destruction so that it, once again, works in your favor, at least for a little longer. Fighting destruction, like the Blades did, is a foolish, futile venture. All they did was hold off the inevitable and ensure that it is extra wrathful the next time around.

You're right that Dagon represents all these things, but that doesn't mean he's directly responsible for them. Trying to stave off the natural course of change and evolution is foolish, you're right, but the Oblivion crisis wasn't natural. It was a group of individuals deliberately invoking an agent of destruction and setting up the circumstances under which he could walk on Mundus.

I agree with you completely and I understand all of that. But Mankar "interpreted" Dagon and led all of the people, if somebody told Dagon to make all of his followers kill Mankar, who would do it? The Mythic Dawn basically follow Mankar. Mankar gave Dagon his best bet to destroy Nirn, which he needed to do to become his jolly old self again (if that story is canon). He wouldn't give up that opportunity.

As has been already said multiple times, bandits should be dirty, wearing tattered or improvised armour. Fallout 3 got it right with the raiders

I liked the Daedra. Dremora looked a bit weird though, I couldn't really tell what was going on with their faces, but the xivilai and clanfear were awesome. They were great examples of you being able to say 'yep, that's the bad guy' when it's appropriate (aka you're on a demonic otherworldly plane of burning fire, pain and hatred)

Marauders were disappointing, I'd like to see some variety. All there currently is is a random mish mash of every race and six throw into heavy armour. Oh, and the leader wears a helmet, Whoopee.

How about Redguard pirates, Dunmer warbands, Nord and Orc barbarians, Argonian tribal hunters, ect. A little variety on top of the redundant bandit, marauder, necromancer... bleh

I was saying there should have been other groups of Dagon worshippers, besides the Mythic Dawn, who didn't follow Mankar Camoran's teachings.

Ah, gotchya. :thumbsup:

Yeah, that woulda been more realistic.