Forgive me if this has been answered before. Could the reason why the Enclave was in full force during FO3, be because they mastered cloning. I mean they are/were the most advanced faction in the wasteland. While everyone else was thrown back to the stone age, the enclave kept on progressing as if nothing happen. Which is why there technology is highly coveted by other factions. For example: ED-E in New Vegas was highly coveted by both the BOS and FOTA. And you know the BOS scribes were salivating in anticipation to tinker with their weapons and armor.

Going back to my original question. According to FO2 the Enclave shouldn't exist only as the Remnants they are portrayed as in New Vegas.

So I'm asking the experts. Was it ever explained either in game or by the developers themselves, as to why they had massive numbers in FO3? Could they have mastered cloning while they were hidden on the Oil Rig, and brought that knowledge with them to DC? Or am I just overthinking things and they were put there so people have something to shoot at.

The end of Fallout 2 heavily implies that the Enclave will almost never make a come back and NV did get it right, there nothing but remnants and an outpost in Chicago. However due to the MASSIVE plot holes of Fallout 3, the Enclave returned as a stereotypical bad guy faction that got beat by Optimus Liberty Prime in and end game that looked like it was directed by Michael Bay.

I agree no clone troopers. I was just trying to make sense as to why there was a boom in the population. I assume you are correct in that they retconned the size of Navarro.

Edit: I also forgot to consider, that if they had mastered cloning. They could've just cloned Richardson and Frank Horrigan.

Their numbers weren't all that great in Fallout 3 if you ignore all the random spawing of Enclave troops.

Navarro never fell after Fallout 2. So if you ignore the random spawing crap, they were a small force.

Navarro being retconned to be a huge super base is just an annoying idea.

Pretty much this, most question about "why is he Enclave so large in Fallout 3" then to ignore the fact that 90% of the enclave troops you see in the game are in random outposts and are set to re-spawn, and re-spawning is a gameplay mechanic, not a lore one.

I only ever done one serious playthrough of Fallout 3. In that playthrough when the Enclave made its presence known, they were mostly everywhere. I even remember seeing Vertibirds flying over the capital building, with ground forces attacking the Super Mutants and Talon Mercs hiding there. To me they seemed like a large force at the time. Plus I've played a bit of Broken Steel, and they seem to have great numbers as well.

They had enough to man two very large military installations (and various outposts in the Capital wasteland, and quite obviously had enough men to throw at Liberty Prime for awhile), as well as operate quite a large number of vertibird aircraft, they weren't huge, but its certain that they were larger than they would have been if Navarro in-game was the only source of their soldiery.

Which likely means Navarro was expanded as a retconn. Not a "huge super-base" (because that's hyperbolic) but something larger than a military camp.

i don't mind the retconn its not lore breaking by any means, i feel imo that the Enclave sould at least be felt in almost evreygame but not seen.... like at all. the most i would want to see would be maybe a long abandon lab at the Institute now used by the Institute. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Dead_Gunner/Saturday_Polls_-_April_27th_2013

The large number of Vertibirds to me was a mistake and even in the final battle alot of the Enclave were just random spawns. Even then it doesn't mean those Verts were filled with people. It could have been just a single person flying them, or maybe even some AI flying them. The Enclave also had force fields and such to hide behind. I didn't notice that many of them in Broken Steel.

Keep in mind people, nothinng has officially retconned.

Also keep in mind, if Navarro was a giant super base and not just the a small outpost that it was, the NCR would have had a hell of a time taking it and it doesn't seem like they did.

It might be a mistake, but that doesn't change the fact that they are there. Which sort of contradicts the idea that, "Well doesn't look like there's all that many in Fallout 3." Its either a mistake or its not.

Anyway, my point is, the numbers in Fallout 3 are far greater than what Navarro in Fallout 2 could have produced. As seen in Fallout 2, Navarro was tiny, with a minimal garrison.

That's really completely besides the point, because if Navarro was larger, the vast majority of the soldiers would have retreated East when the orders came to retreat. Leaving behind a skeleton crew. Which is why the NCR didn't have a a "hell of a time" taking it. Because everyone else was one their way to Raven Rock.

And, please, don't refer to it as a "super-base" that's not my intention. My intention is a base larger than what is seen in Fallout 2. That's it. "Super-base" is implying I'm going for something the size of the Oil Rig.

The only way I would play a FO4 with the Enclave, is if this new enclave is not the cliche evil guys they are portrayed as in FO3. With each chapter bringing back the same old bad guys it cheapens them. The Enclave were awesome in Fallout 2, Fallout 3 brought many plotholes in relation to them. Having them back will as a major force will just add more plotholes.

Basically I'll only support them if they're a minor faction, like the Remnants in New Vegas. Obsidian had the right idea, in having only a handful of highly trained geezers left. Most of them wanted to make amends with their pasts.

Here's what I posted in other thread:

The Enclave wouldn't have just abandoned Navarro, leaving behind a small force if they had hundreds if not thousands of people.

The base would have been larger, that means a hell of alot more defenses and such.

In the end to me there wasn't that many Enclave in Fallout 3. If we include the random spawns and such then yeah there would be hundreds of them.

It was a presidential order which called them to Raven Rock. It wasn't up for discussion or what they "felt like." It was a tactical fall-back after losing their capital.

I think there was almost certainly hundreds regardless. There has to have been.

It wouldn't make sense to just leave it with just a few people. Still even if it only had a few people, the base defences would have been very powerful.

Why did it have to be hundreds of them? Cause of all the Vertibirds? Again it only takes one person to fly it, if there was anyone flying them at all and it doesn't mean they were filled with troops. Raven Rock was filled with robots. AAFB had alot of Deathclaws and laser turrets more then actual people.

We also have to take into account that the Enclave seem to have allowed outsiders to join, if not at least work for the Enclave. Maybe they dooped people into joining and used them as cannon fodder.

GARY? GAAAARY!?

Why? Adams Air Force Base doesn't have particularly tremendous defenses in terms of automated turrets and the like. I don't see why larger Navarro = "Super awesome base that the NCR couldn't have taken."

The NCR lost a lot of people regardless.

I'm not sure why they left it with a few people anyway (which happened regardless btw). There isn't really a good in-lore explanation for it.

No, because the Enclave fought two major engagements (three if you count Raven Rock) and still managed to soldier on. They manned two major military installations (Raven Rock, Adams Air Force Base) and staffed various others around the Capital wasteland. At one point, they were essentially throwing men to the meat grinder against Liberty Prime, both during the battle for the purifier and the battles afterward when Prime began attacking Enclave installations around the capital wasteland.

Having a fully stocked vertibird fleet is just an example, but the more pressing matter is the sheer numbers required to have operated these bases at even the minimalist of capacities. It would have had to have been several hundred at least.

No evidence for wastelanders being conscripted into the armed forces, so for the time being we must assume no.

I have to disagree with you.

I literally just finished playing Broken Steel today( soo damn awful) and I couldnt help but notice the amount of troopers there were. I kept on thinking "thank god I can sneak by them all because I really dont have the time nor patience to deal with them all". Adams AFB was covered with them, especially the roving mega base thing(or what ever that thing was called). They swarmed that place like ants on sugar.

IMO the number of Enclave was enough to make me scratch my head and wonder where they all came from.

Anywho, the only redeeming quality about BS was the fact that Bethesda basically made it impossible for them to be used in any more Fallout game as any serious faction. At most they will be displayed as they were in New Vegas.

Maybe BGS got the hint that they went the wrong way with basically resurrecting a dead faction so they made BS to show that we wont have to deal with them again.

This is Bethesda we are talking about, can you really say that with 100% confidence?

I mean, like you said, they are swarming all over Adams and vertibirds are taking off filled with soldiers (and yes, they are full of soldiers because you can see soldiers getting into them).

Not saying it will happen, but if Bethesda wants them back, they are back.

@http://www.gamesas.com/user/646594-lt-andronicus/

While theres no evidence of Enclave forcing people into their armed forces there is evidence of them forcing people to help the cause. As soon as you enter the crawler in Broken Steel your confronted by a man who is being forced to work on their robots. He even says that with all the ruckus your causing it makes it the perfect opportunity for him to escape.

So is it really so far fetched that they would "force" wastelanders to help their cause via picking up arms against their enemies? Some may refuse but im sure more than a few people would join when confronted by such an intimidating presence such as the Enclave.

LOL... true.

Next thing you know they will have a base on the moon which has been breeding enclave soldier for the past 200yrs.

Yeah it is. Giving wastelanders a job fixing robots is one thing, but arming them in Advanced APA MKII, giving them high tech plasma weaponry, and throwing them at the Brotherhood is another. I mean, what if they turn and start shooting up Enclave soldiers? Or flat-out defect to the Brotherhood?

Granted, I would crack up laughing if it turned out that the Brotherhood was shooting wastelander conscripts the whole time they thought they were killing Enclave soldiers. That would just be delicious irony. But I just don't see how that's any more plausible than assuming, say, the Enclave conscripted a whole Vault somewhere.

The Enclave still has an outpost in Chicago that's still operational and they might have other elsewhere. They've got to have refueling stations like the Remnant's Bunker scattered around and maybe they garrisoned an old military base or something on their way to DC.

I believe the outpost in Chicago is their last left. In New Vegas, ED-E traveled from Adam's Airforce Base to Chicago then on to Navarro. Of course he was shot down before completing his objective.

Here's the vid showing the message recorded in ED-E:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PAooPzjl6U

So it seems Navarro might still be active after all, atleast according to the recording.

Edit: According to the recording their seem to be more than one outpost in Chicago.

I think what happened was a majority of the Enclave left Navarro for the West Coast but lost communication and think Navarro is still standing. There's know way a sizeable force could have left Navarro when it was being attacked by NCR so the Remnants are the only survivors of that battle.