One issue I could see them facing is the increasing lack of genetic diversity as more as their numbers grow smaller. Unless they're willing to breed with the mutated locals, it's possible they may face inbreeding problems in the future.

You've got a point but I'm assuming since the pre-war government was large I'm assuming that the Enclave would have large numbers too. Besides, we don't even know how many locations they control. All we've seen is The Oil Rig, Navarro, Raven Rock, and Adams AFB and they've all had signifigant populations.

Well, I believe the whole mutation thing is simply a scare tactic to keep the sheep in line and to justify their actions against the wasteland.

You run into less opposition saying you are going to kill mutants than by saying "we are going to kill people".

Are their mutations? Yes, ghouls and super mutants and critters.

But there are plenty of pure or darn close to pure people running about. The Enclave high command just uses this as scare tactic.

Autumn seems to be changing his tune on that, but he could be dead.

Any surviving Enclave, I do not think, will have a prejudice towards "mutant humans" who have no visible form of mutation.

If Autumn living is considered cannon, then maybe all the Enclave personel that felt like he did left for Chicago with him. The hardcoe Enclave (Eden) stayed behind to try to beat the Brotherhood.

Vault City survived on a lower population. As does the Mojave Brotherhood of Steel.

But it will need to be carefully monitored with a very close breeding program.

Both Eden and Autumn however, I believe, were less concerned about human mutations. They were primarily concerned with extreme ones. Eden never makes reference to wanting to kill off wastelanders. He specifically mentions Super-mutants, ghouls, and other animal-based mutations as his target. As I said before, he just thinks wastelanders in the CW are unfortunate collateral damage for the price of going nuclear on the hostile threats.

Both Stiggs and Anna Holt were welcomed into the Enclave. And they were both wastelanders.

Vault City's breeding program wouldn't exactly work for the Enclave. They were mainly worried about too much population growth while the Enclave's main problem seems to be de-population due to a shrinking gene pool because of not breeding with non-pure humans.

I disagree. It was a key point in the FO1 plot that there is a significant difference between regular [exposed] wastelanders and the prime normals that remained sealed in the vault for most of their life. Prime Normals tended to survive the dip with their mind intact [more often than non-primes]; It's (possibly) the difference between Harry & Larry and the Leiutennant.

I think the Enclave were full blown genocidal ~where damaged [or altered] genes were concerned; and generally evil aside from that. Remember, the Enclave exchange operator casually sent a kill team to Gecko [to murder whomever they found present] then gloated about it ~to a total stranger that merely logged into their network from a live terminal. Sent a killer team to murder whomever they found, and he'd read about it in the after action report.

Just because the locals aren't specifically targeted for elimination, and occasionally the Enclave takes in particularly useful wastelanders doesn't mean they'd be eager to interbreed.

And that mutation that you are talking about is radiation.

A good quality super mutant is low levels of radiation + FEV.

I am not disputing that. What I am saying is there would be plenty of people who were not exposed to radiation and thus, a prime normal.

BoS, Vault Dwellers, and any other person who had a quality shelter and took precautions. For example the Survivalist in Honest Hearts. People in rural areas. The Master was making just fine SM, and he wasn't raiding Vaults for all those people, meaning that many of his SM were regular wastelanders, who had not been exposed to much radiation. Vault 13 folk would be great.

The FO world did not have a nuclear winter. Yes, there were people who got screwed. But there would be a good chunk who did not. By the time of FO2, even FO1, radiation isn't running rampant. A lot of people in the games all had shelter. Vault 15 raiders and shady sands. Vault City.

That is point of my entire argument. If mutation caused by radiation, then there would be plenty of people who were protected. But then people try to say oh well it not just radiation it also FEV and umm it still floating around for 160 years. And I say no cause that would totally contradict lore and it would have created ALL kinds of problems in humans that we NEVER see in game.

The Enclave just uses this as an agenda and method of control over their people. If they were that concerned with pure or non pure, the Curling virus would have only affected non pure. It would protect them and kill all non pure. They are not concerned because they only care about themselves.

"Pure" humanity is a propaganda concept invented by the Enclave to justify global genocide. If you present yourself as humanity and everyone outside your organization as non-human mutants, genocide stops being an insane idea and become a warranted tactic. Dehumanization is a key part of every genocide in history and Enclave's is not different.

Furthermore, Earth has background ionizing radiation to which everyone is exposed, while mutation is an integral part of change and evolution.

While I agree strongly they shouldn't be the primary antagonist -ever- again, I wouldn't mind seeing a town governed by Enclave deserters who used their tech to help the locals.

Yes there was (to you anyway), though I don't understand the significance of a nuclear winter too this argument.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Winter


Well Curling 13 kills waste-landers in an hour and Vault Dwellers in 14.5 hours so clearly there is some genetic difference between them. Perhaps during the viruses development they got impatient and decided just to kill everyone off if it would mean the Project would be completed sooner.

Then by Fallout 3 they've simply comlpeted that research and made it target specific people.

On that note your failure to understand genetics is still pretty aparent. You know genetic mutants being passed through descendants or the entire FEV-Virus in Fallout 3 wouldn't make any sense either. You know like how they're genetic diseases in real life that are passed down?

Radiation from the war mutated people and those genetic mutants/anomalies are passed down through procreation.


I don't think that it's entirely implausible that the Enclave considers the generally negative mutations caused by exposure to a nuclear war as distinctly un-natural.

I don't think that the Enclave's population would require some kind of smokescreen justification either. Mutations aside people in the Enclave are very jingoistic and hateful of outsiders, I doubt they'd be up in arms over the idea if the mainlanders weren't mutants.

Human history disagrees. We are generally similar to each other and if the exterior wasn't dehumanized, the Project would have major problems. Hell,Einsatzgruppen tasked with exterminating Jews by hand in the initial part of the War ran quickly into problems, as murdering people by the dozens screws with your head to the point of alcoholism and suicide. The Enclave had to both dehumanize the outsiders and create an impersonal weapon to carry out their plan.

And I would say that this is Fallout, where simply having an overstocked armoury in an isolated Vault creates the Boomers.

Or where the decendants of normal pre-war Americans leave their Vault and immediately take on the persona of Mongol raiders.

Your really over-thinking things, the Enclave have been entirely isolated from the world and have clearly dillusional ideas; they aren't "normal" people, why do you immediately assume that they would condemn genocide. The entire moral fabric of their society is warped and likely has been as long as anyone can remember; this is "normal" and "rational" to them.

If the Master gets 20% success from wastelanders, that would mean in he direct area of his operation, 20% of wastelanders are not "mutated".

This is why he wants Vaults. It would give him 100% success.

Also, even if Bob was mutated and Jenny was not, it is not 100% that they pass down the "mutation".

Also, in more rural and less devastated by radiation areas and those that had protection, the % of normal humans would increase.

The Enclave doesn't care. They have a population of people they need to keep in control. A revolt on a rig would kinda be a bad thing.

I'd have accepted either Enclave deserters (now near 70 years age, with 45 year old kids), using the tech to subjugate the locals ~ or possibly as you describe, but ~the same ages, and the kids and locals do not know about the parent's past affiliations.

No it doesn't. Pure-humans themselves have a 100% success rate where-as wastelanders only have a 20% chance of success. Proving further the distinct genetic differences between the mutants and the normals.

Also, in more rural and less devastated by radiation areas and those that had protection, the % of normal humans would increase.

It's in the title of the game.

What are you even trying to argue at this point? That not everybody on the earth is definitely a mutant? That's probably the case, it's likely that there may be some incredibly isolated communities out there.

I remember, you were saying that:

If mutation caused by radiation, then there would be plenty of people who were protected. But then people try to say oh well it not just radiation it also FEV and umm it still floating around for 160 years. And I say no cause that would totally contradict lore and it would have created ALL kinds of problems in humans that we NEVER see in game.

Let's not have this go any further than this needs to; you said this, this is wrong because of GCSE biology - mutations are genetic; therefore it's not "contradicting lore" that people in 2281 are still mutants.

So instead of just rambling on about anything except the issue I was responding too let's just leave this.

Also, even if Bob was mutated and Jenny was not, it is not 100% that they pass down the "mutation".

Because there is just one "mutation"? Exposure to a thermonuclear war produces only a single "mutation" that's common to all wastelanders?

Your also aware of things like recessive genes which are still passed on yet have no affect and might not for generations right?

EDIT

The Enclave doesn't care.

Your right, they don't. So why are you still trying to convince me that some scant people out in the wastes are not "mutants" when the Enclave wouldn't care regardless.

This is a pretty clear cut issue. You said something "contradicted lore" and I proved that it did not; either argue that point instead of side-tracking away from it or admit you were wrong.

Pretty that means that with non-Prime normals (ie. wastelanders), the chance of creating an intelligent mutant is only 20%. A wastelander which has been affected by mutation, in other words, only has a 20% chance of creating a "good mutant" when dipped.

He wants prime-normals because they create an intelligent and strong mutant 100% of the time.

The levels of radiation is what causes failure. There isn't a 20% chance that a highly irradiated and mutated person creates a successful mutant, it is directly tied to radiation. Nice job trying to spin it. The reason why Vault Dwellers are 100%, no radiation mutation.

And yeah, radiation + FEV floating around for 160 years would create huge lore problems. Ie, why were there not super mutants by accident?

Also, again, in humans we talking about a mutation that shows no physical symptoms. Seeing how Enclave is a master of genetics, why don't you explain how this rampant mutation has caused no physical changes? We never see that in game, except in critters, ghouls, and super mutants. This is, imo, a big screw up in FO1 and 2. Unless most people the VD and CO encounters are for the most part pure.

But like Styles said this better on the ghoul thread. I saying Enclave do not care about mutation, just themselves, and they willing to kill at least 20% if not more, of pure/mostly pure humans.

It wasn't "simply." We're talking about people from a belligerent, jingoistic society shut in confined spaces for nearly a century and a half (that's six generations) with access to an overstocked armory. Furthermore, the Boomers are a result of self-imposed 50 year isolation. It's perfectly plausible for an insular, tribal society to emerge. It's the same mechanism that creates cults, closed communities etc.


"Normal" is a very subjective term. At any rate, http://www.falloutwiki.com/Vault_15#Background was specifically populated with people of different cultures and ethnic backgrounds. The Khans are just one of four separate groups that emerged from it.

And, again, history shows that people adopt bits and pieces of past cultures for their own use. It isn't anything new.


I'm pointing out that even despite their conditioning, they still need rationalization. I don't think you can argue that Einsatzgruppen regarded the people they killed as comparable to them. They considered their victims trash to be disposed of. And yet they suffered from depression, alcoholism, and committed suicides. That's why the Enclave needs both an impersonal weapon and the racial doctrine to rationalize their deeds.


http://www.falloutwiki.com/Forced_Evolutionary_Virus#Overview. Check the references section for sources.

Apart from the time when that was exactly the case. I love how the guy who cannot admit when he is wrong is saying I'm spinning things.


Because they're dunking people in a VAT of FEV and trace amounts in the air. Oh [censored], there's smoke coming from that chimney, guess I'm going to suffocate now.


Yup, that's certainly how genetics work. I know that diabetes isn't hereditary in my family because my four uncles and grand-father never had any signs of physical deformity.

Also all those times in Fallout where things affect pure-humans and mutated humans differently. You know in Fallout 1, Fallout 2 and Fallout 3. Hell your last argument was that a lack of "radiation mutation" has a direct impact on how FEV affects you.

This is pointless, you just want to argue with people and just make things up as you go along.

I believe YOU are the one "spinning it," which is what you do to everything. Have a link to the actual quote so we can have context?

It isn't "if you pick out a random wastelander, there is a 20% chance they are a prime-normal". Else it would just say that. Nowhere is that implied.

No, what it says is, "for a wastelander, there is a 20% chance of success."

See the obvious difference? For a non-prime normal, there is only a 20% success with dipping.



A mutated or changed genotype doesn't necessarily imply overt phenotype changes. Simple biology. However, I imagine there are more subtle changes that aren't shown blatantly by the game engine. Stillborn births, extra digits, growths etc.

I don't understand, your writing my response for me; this is exactly why I have no problem accepting that even the most typical Enclaver considers genocide just "one of those things".


I'm presuming however that Einsatzgruppen hadn't grown up "a belligerent, jingoistic society shut in confined spaces for nearly a century and a half (that's six generations) with access to an overstocked armoury"; the changes in this man's ideology occured within his lifetime.

The rationalization need be no more complicated than "they need to die so we can survive" which is exactly what the Enclave mentality is; implying that calling them mutants is some fabricated attempt at lulling the population into accepting something that they'd otherwise think is wrong is just not what I believe happened.

I don't think that they'd over-wise see the Project as heinous, I mean where do you draw the line? Are the V13 prisoners and human experimentation just covered-up too? The indiscriminate killing of waste-landers?

The Enclave is amoral too the core as far as I am concerned, they view the genocide of mutants the same way they'd clear away the rubble to rebuild.

The Master figured out the reason for failure. Radiation mutation.

Again, go post in ghoul/mutation thread.

Why would I waste my time.

Feel free to respond to me in this ghoul/mutation thread if you wish and I'll get back to you.