Was my earlier post tl;dr or was it ignored because I didn't argue for one side enough?





Oh and FalloutFTW, you can spawn a copy of your own character by opening the console, click yourself and type 'createfullactorcopy' in the console. (Get rid of yourself by clicking your clone and typing 'deletefullactorcopy.)
Actually, this works with any target so you can make clones of anyone if you just click on them.

Ergo, you can spawn a copy of yourself among the BoS and then join the Enclave to fight yourself and the BoS. (You might have to fire on yourself to get it to react though. I'm not sure.)

I tried it in Oblivion. Since I had pretty damn good gear, I got my ass handed to me by myself.

Anyword on getting a free in game recorder for the idea I suggested. You could always try Hypercam but I dunno if that works in things like Fallout 3 and the quality isn't too good.

Enclave soldiers aren't born soldiers. Lyons' BoS have wastelanders, but they are trained. They are still human and can learn just like modern soldiers can, and they are not born soldiers. Also, wastelanders live in the wasteland. They survive in a harsh environment and I think they are tough as a result from that. Even if Enclave soldiers are trained their whole lives, they are sheltered and aren't actually facing danger during their training. Wastelanders actually have to struggle to survive. They are tough just from living, then they get training when they join the BoS.

I hardly consider the training they get from Gunny to be top notch.



Meh, I like it.



Cool, didn't know that. I just remembered I fooled around with that in Oblivion.

:facepalm:

The enclave is so much better trained. ITS CANON!!!!!!

http://www.wegame.com/download/ is free. It has pretty good quality and no recording limit. It only works for specific games, but Fallout 3 is one of them.

I may set up a battle between some BOS and Enclave soldiers and record it later on.

Enclave are trained FROM BIRTH to be soldiers. I think some random wastelander with a suit of power armor and a laser rifle vs. a guy in even better power armor and a plasma rifle will win. Lets think about this in a different way.

A competition for eighteen-year-olds comes out to test their knowledge about lets say, astronomy. Now who is going to win, the guy who has been taught about astronomy for eighteen years by his astronomy-scientist father or the guy who just took the class in highschool? It's the same thing, just a different context.

That makes no sense. For that argument to work you'd have to say who would win: "Those taught astronomy all their lives..." "Or those who've been living and travelling through space their whole lives..." The Enclave are training at warfare everyday. The BoS are living warfare everyday.

The Enclave set up command posts and have a chain of command, but their orders and objectives come from somewhere else, not from a cell leader on the ground. BoS cells are acting independently all over DC. They're accustomed to it by now. Even if they saw a Vertibird come in and dump three or four crack troops in the middle of a street, they'd have an advantage everytime because they know the area they operate in, and they wouldn't be stood there waving the Enclave in and saying "Hi!". They'd be waiting for an opportunity to take that little dumped patrol out. Or even to watch them stroll toward an area held by Mutants that the BoS have been tangling with for the past few weeks... and then move in for the mop up afterwards. One score and they've suddenly got Enclave weapons, and armour if they want it, a few crates of reserve ammo the Enclave would have at their little post. Now you have battle hardened soldiers with powerful weapons. One cell. Woe unto the next set of Enclave who get dumped to check on the missing guys from the first time.

All the training in the world in a base in the middle of nowhere wouldn't be enough to prepare a soldier to take on someone whose been fighting for the better part of his or her life, for his or her life, and in a place he or she knows backwards With weapons only marginally less powerful than those you're toting. It's not like some tribal people toting AKs being attacked by modern armies, like crack US soldiers. It's more like make-do SAS soldiers using what they've got as effectively as they can on the ground, and then being attacked by strike team SEALS or something. It'd be hard fighting all the way. I'm with Attentater5, it doesn't really matter because we can't prove it either way, though. I still wanna see how the Pride fight. I'd be interested to know their stats since obviously Lyons would have been trained from early childhood like the lil kid at the Citadel currently, what's his name? Add that to actual combat experience, and her stats, if not her weapons and armour, should trounce any Enclave troopers. But they won't. ^_^

think about this.
realistically, how many troops do you think the BoS has in D.C? 200? 250 maybe... and they use small guns, lazer weapons and some big guns. the Enclave would have numbers in the thousands, plasma weapons, a death claw army, hundreds of big guns and better armour.

honestly, even in a lvl 30 mod free game, on a flat plain, with the 'clave throwing everything they got and the BoS throwing everything they got (the PC included) they clave simply has too many people, too good tech and too high skill.

Where are you getting those numbers from? The Enclave have limited resources like every faction in a post-nuclear world. They have access to greater resources, like fuel for the birds, and the birds themselves, but they're still limited. Even personnel. They can't wage an all out war without copious planning ahead of time, and even when they begin their assault they seem to be content to occupy useless tracts of Wasteland doing no good at all. Rather than engaging in an all-out offensive on key areas in DC, striking at the Bortherhood, Outcasts, Mutants and Merc companies. There's a whole eco system of warfare that the existing factions have come to deal with day-to-day... the Enclave can't just arrive and expect due to training and equipment to just suddenly become top of the food chain.

Even if they went about crippling the Brotherhood strongholds, as I said, a vast majority of the Brotherhood act independently of Lyons' command. They're like specialists, with trained individuals with expertise in different fields. So there'll be the recon element, explosives, medical... they can survive as a power unto themselves, whilst still pushing the fight at the Mutants. The Raven Rock Enclave are remnants of a much larger entity, and the majority made of up scientists. Outcasts have their slice of things and aren't poorly equipped. Mutants, Ghouls, mercs, Wastelanders...

In a one on one fight on a battlefield favouring all out war, of course the Enclave would win. I'm not debating that. In an all out war locking horns the US GI of the Vietnam war would have trounced the NVA and VC... that's not how realism works though. Eh? Heh. Redcoats lining up like idiots and being shot down en masse by guerilla Colonists. French troops marching en masse at Redcoats trained in a unique firing stance to shoot more rapidly and to greater effect than any other army of the period. Numbers counted for nothing. That's why I said the Deadliest Warrior thing wouldn't work, because they work it out on stats, like the game does... a fantastically equipped SAS army soldier trained from being sixteen to his current age of twenty-five, but never seeing combat, could be pitted against a regular army soldier trained for one year and dropped directly into conflict zones, from being seventeen to his current age of twenty-five. The regular army guy would be the one you'd want on your side.

I agree with OniOne. Where are you getting these numbers from? The Enclave aren't as large as you think they are. If you have played Fallout 2, you should know what happened to the Enclave. Their numbers are very limited, probably less than Lyons' section of the BoS. The Enclave are too picky and were limited from when they first arrived in D.C. They were once incredibly large, but now they are not. The BoS as a whole is much larger than the Enclave and Lyons' section of the BoS is probably larger than the Enclave as well. The Enclave are not the organization they once were. They are weak now and the survivors of Fallout 2's events only had 35 years to repopulate their ranks, and they don't take in wastelanders. Fallout 3's events

Yes they do. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Stiggs Remember him?

Stiggs is an exception. I knew someone was going to bring him up. He was one of the few wastelanders accepted. I'm sure he still got treated badly as well. The Enclave very rarely accept a wastelander instead of killing them.

If they took in Stiggs, chances are good they've accepted more wastelanders. Stiggs was alive, breathing and had all of his limbs still attached. He couldn't have been treated that badly.

Um its player controled, and has infinate stims, if the enclave had the same you would die, all the time.


And, when bethesda decide to make an unbiased version of fallout 3 I may care about canon, but they made it specidfically to make you join BoS and kill enclave, so its pointless.


Yep, and seti if you disagree explain how the writers were good, you know they changed moraly gray to black and white, they made a biased game, they made MZ...


I dont see BS as canon, its more BoS than the MQ.
And, they were a shadow govournment, why confine them to one place, they are all over America.
Thanks to the war with the NCR, your wrong.


No bethesda is just to lazy to make an alternative path, then to unimaginateive to move away from an area so we dont find out the outcome but can make it up ourselves (they could have with F3 but failed as they brought the mutated FEV. Obviously you dont realise te BoS are no saints, until fallout 3 [censored] that up.

Enclave still seem to be leading in the fighting scale...

I hope nobody thinks I'm being a Brother of Steel really devoted fan. I dislike all the power armour factions, heh ha. I just think the BoS + (misc Wasteland factions) would give the Enclave a world of trouble and ongoing pain once the initial shock of Enclave arrival settles and becomes an occupation. They're all over the place, Enclave. Just because you have Vertibirds doesn't mean you gotta spread your troops all over the place, all at one time. :sadvaultboy:

Edit: Heh, aw, let me say this since I'm referring to myself. "Really devoted fan" was the forums way of saying fan-boy. :vaultboy:

1. You can spawn a LW NPC.

2. It is still canon.

3. I hate MZ. It is a pointless shooter with no story, but there is still a story in the original Fallout 3 and some of the other DLC. I am content with that writing.

4. BS is canon, regardless of what you say. I don't want MZ to be canon, but it is. They were a shadow government, but they had one main base of operations. Why separate the government in the event of a nuclear apocalypse? That only weakens them. Also, the BoS are still larger, regardless of the war with the NCR. The Enclave were destroyed in Fallout 2 and in Fallout 3. The BoS are bigger, and that is the way Black Isle Studios and Bethesda made it.

5. I never said the BoS were saints. I have played the originals and I know what they were like, but I still prefer the real BoS to the Enclave. Also, Bethesda didn't mess it up. They kept the real BoS the way it was but made Lyons' group a separate faction. Lyons' group turned their back on the original mission and decided to help the locals. Bethesda made that clear, they didn't change lore to say the real BoS are saints. I was referring to Lyons' section of the BoS, as this is the Fallout 3 forums. What is canon is canon.

Seti, just face it, the Enclave are better in combat. I don't care how much you don't like it, it's canon.

My offense on Stiggs was, If they can help cure one waster, why not more. Anyway, I more neutral to both, each have their own pros and cons.

I don't see that written anywhere, or even hinted anywhere. The Enclave have better technology. That doesn't mean they are better fighters.

Better tech, deathclaw army, etc. BoS lose, its not the end of the world.

In a naked fight, the Enclave would win. We tested it.

It's coded into Bethesda's freaking game. Wouldn't that qualify it as "cannon", which you are so keen on?

Their cure is shooting them and using modified FEV to kill them. It is a well-known fact that they don't usually take in wastelanders and they prefer to stay "pure". I doubt they would let any of the few wastelanders that are part of the Enclave reproduce within the Enclave and they let few wastelanders in. They hate wastelanders.

This. Seti read what he said, that is indeed, "canon."