Enclave or BOS : Fallout 3

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:38 am

Well I've spent so long debating this topic that is slowly becoming more and more 'old'.

I am a strong supporter of the BoS (atleast the BoS in the Cap Wasteland). Although this topic can definitely not be finalised in a sentence or two, I will try.
I'll probably be punched and harrassed for this view, but I basically believe:

1. BoS actually CARE about the Wastelanders, despite their sometimes laziness and ignorance, and they are definitely the 'good' ones.
2. The Enclave are smarter and definitely more powerful than the weak BoS.
3. The Enclave have the right intentions, but they are ruthless, cruel and evil in the way they go about this.
4. The Enclave's plan is flawed IMO, as after everyone is 'perfect' and non-mutated, they will easily get mutations again, with all the irradiation. Hell, even breathing would almost immediately give you some sort of disease, however small.

So: BoS are good, but quite incompetent when it comes to saving the Capital Wasteland and restoring America. The Enclave are quite capable of restoring America, but are way too cold and merciless in the way they go about things.

I just don't think the Enclave can go around killing everyone in order to save the Capital Wasteland in the longterm. And anyway, as I've said, I think the whole plan is flawed, once they restore America, unless we all want to wear face masks.

And one last thing: I'm a bit tired of all you Enclave supporters flaming us BoS supporters for looking at it in a black and white view. We're both doing it at times, so stop pointing the finger.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:45 am

This is just a technicality, but the Enclave had nothing to do with the great war. The REAL Us gov't pressed the big red buttons. The Enclave is a shadow goverment, meaning they were created to take over if the real goverment got blown to atoms, which they did.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:32 am

This is just a technicality, but the Enclave had nothing to do with the great war. The REAL Us gov't pressed the big red buttons. The Enclave is a shadow goverment, meaning they were created to take over if the real goverment got blown to atoms, which they did.

We don't know whether or not Enclave was the real US government. But it is more than certain that they did not push the button. USA had just kicked China out of Alaska and invaded China itself. That's the worst event imaginable to start a nuclear war. For China, it would have been "if we can't have it, no one will".

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:32 am

That was the primary reason for there organization! They looked to the future saw the nuke holocaust and planned for the future comeback of America post bombs.

A future America based on what? "America" is more than just the land it sits on. "America" is about innovation, determination, individualism, and the pioneer spirit. "Real America" is in the hearts of every wastelander who struggles day to day to overcome the obstacles set before him.

I'm curious as to why wanting to rebuild America is bad? *scratches head*

Because what didn't work last time will work this time? Rather than being stuck in the old world, the Enclave, or whoever, should be trying to forge a new one and drive on.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:59 am

I disagree with the sentiment that NCR doesn't "murder people" or whatever the argument is. The Chosen One is never presented with evidence that this occurs, but we see only one town in F2, and there is plenty of evidence that the NCR is not afraid of strong-arm tactics and intimidation. It would take nothing to dress up as some raiders and kill a few people in a town in order to convince them of the benefits of annexation. And, like any organized government, they will do anything it takes to remain in power. If that means a few troublesome villagers die where no one cares about, then whatever. To suggest that this kind of thing doesn't happen just because we don't see it is pretty naive.

I'm assuming you're referring to the Squatters at Vault 15. The NCR never does anything to harm them during the game, or during any of the endings. They either prosper with the help of the NCR, or die out depending on the Chosen One's actions. It's not "naive" to come to a conclusion based on the facts presented in the story; this is fiction and not real life.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:27 am

I'm assuming you're referring to the Squatters at Vault 15. The NCR never does anything to harm them during the game, or during any of the endings. They either prosper with the help of the NCR, or die out depending on the Chosen One's actions. It's not "naive" to come to a conclusion based on the facts presented in the story; this is fiction and not real life.

Vault 15, Redding, New Reno, Vault City all receive enormous pressure from NCR. Just what, exactly, that pressure is, we never know. It's naive to assume anything based on incomplete data.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:50 am

Vault 15, Redding, New Reno, Vault City all receive enormous pressure from NCR. Just what, exactly, that pressure is, we never know. It's naive to assume anything based on incomplete data.

No it's presumptuous. What information we do have points to NCR being a fairly decent government with corruption like any other government, but there is absolutely nothing painting them as mass murderers. Assuming they're mass murderers just because they're not best friends with everyone is unfounded; there's nothing to back it up.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:01 am

No it's presumptuous. What information we do have points to NCR being a fairly decent government with corruption like any other government, but there is absolutely nothing painting them as mass murderers.

I am not arguing that they are, merely that, as players, we aren't given enough information to know.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:54 am

I am not arguing that they are, merely that, as players, we aren't given enough information to know.

There's more indication that they don't kill people without just cause than there is. Either way the NCR isn't as black and white as the matter concerning the Enclave, and that's what this argument was originally about.

» Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:23 pm

Well, Seti, you can be so black and white, we'll be logical... But whatever... All you do is flame us for likeing something you don't... We like these guys for a reason, you can't tell us we can't. Sorry if that offends you, but we like Enclave, we look at the big picture, you look at the little picture...

Some people can't accept that other people have opinions.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:01 am

Enclave ftw.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:43 am

My characters have supported both the BoS and the Enclave respectively, or neither, based on their beliefs and experiences.

It's a bit ironic that the black/white racism doesn't exist in the Enclave, because the pure nigers and honkies live in perfect harmony and happily gang up on the muties...

For me, if the Enclave would succeed and restore "America", it would be America in name only. Their methods have no place in something that embrace the spirit of America.
To make an anology; it would be as if the US today decided to "restore" the US by killing off, say, all the latinos or other ethnic minority of your choice.

Ghouls runs a risk of turning feral, that is true. Just as 'pure' humans run a risk of turning insane, and in the Fallout world the risk shouldn't be all that different in terms of chance between them, all things considered. It should be dealt with if and when it happens.
Killing your fellow humans because they're different has a long tradition in history, but really...

I wouldn't mind if someone shot that bastard Crowley or Roy Phillips, because ghouls can be bastards too, but I would definitely object if someone shot Carol, Tulip or Gob.
Likewise, I wouldn't mind if someone shot Allistair Tenpenny, Anthony Ling, Princess, Grouse or Eulogy Jones (any of the slavers really), but I definitely would object if anyone shot Moira Brown, Shorty, Agatha or Dom.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:22 pm

You REALLY have an obsession with bashing the game in every post you make, Andaius?

What bashing? It's true they didn't expand on them did they? they just recycled them.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:12 am

The B.O.S. is better bcuz they actually accept you and also they support Three Dog. Owwwwwwwwwww

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:27 am

The BoS in the years to come following the events of the game could consolidate into a power structure that could incorporate most if the people of the D.C. waste. They are already working with Rivet City and Megaton for water distribution. It may take time but people rebuild, reinvent, and progress into the future even after catastrophes.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:20 am

What bashing? It's true they didn't expand on them did they? they just recycled them.

It's kinda like an Elder Scrolls Arena effect. Where they had a game for the series but nothing lore wise came out of it. Atleast, that's how I see it.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:45 am

What bashing? It's true they didn't expand on them did they? they just recycled them.

Recycling would mean that they copy each aspect of it. But in Fallout 3, Enclave has only its name and mission in common with the Californian one. Everything else from political structure to outfits is changed.

» Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:15 pm

If the enclave is a democracy in the way America was then how the hell did a talking computer get elected as president? Dont the people actually voting want to see who they are voting for? Anyway seems kinda funny, they have a computer as pres. no wonder they are going down the tubes.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:46 am

If the enclave is a democracy in the way America was then how the hell did a talking computer get elected as president? Dont the people actually voting want to see who they are voting for? Anyway seems kinda funny, they have a computer as pres. no wonder they are going down the tubes.

Y'see, they operate on the principle of 'one man, one vote'.

Eden is the Man, and he has the Vote.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:10 am

If the enclave is a democracy in the way America was then how the hell did a talking computer get elected as president? Dont the people actually voting want to see who they are voting for? Anyway seems kinda funny, they have a computer as pres. no wonder they are going down the tubes.

They did hold elections back in California. And besides, if Eden hadn't assumed total control, Enclave would still be isolated in Navarro, being bombed by BoS vertibirds and NCR/Shi/etc. troops.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:21 am

the whole "one man, one vote" thing doesn't spell out democracy for me.

you cant put a dress on a donkey and call it a lady, even if the donkey thinks it is.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:12 am

Eden should have transferred his brain chip into a sentrybot or something a little more mobile thank goodness he didn’t become liberty prime. I can see him outside of megaton launching mininukes at it yelling god bless the USA!

» Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:39 pm

Eden should have transferred his brain chip into a sentrybot or something a little more mobile thank goodness he didn't become liberty prime. I can see him outside of megaton launching mininukes at it yelling god bless the USA!

totally made me think of pres nixin-bot from futurama

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:53 am

Eden should have transferred his brain chip into a sentrybot or something a little more mobile thank goodness he didn't become liberty prime. I can see him outside of megaton launching mininukes at it yelling god bless the USA!

Lack of processing power.
Even with a satellite uplink to connect him to the mainframe the circuits and processors in a sentry bot are too limited to provide enough versatility for what the leader of the Enclave would need.
An android from the Institute might work. The circuits should be sophisticated enough at least.

» Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:50 pm

The B.O.S. is better bcuz they actually accept you and also they support Three Dog. Owwwwwwwwwww

1. You are forced to join them. The Brotherhood only accept you because you are the only one who can do something, and the Brotherhood is just incompetent.
2. Three Dog is a [censored].

I hate him.

Biggest hypocrite in the entire game. Constantly brags about fighting the "Good Fight" by ranting over some old radio gear instead of actually helping people, when what he really does is just pump his listeners full of propoganda and what he thinks is right. And of course, he can get away with it since he's got one of the very few (and most accessible) radio stations in the wasteland. It's pretty amusing when he does nothing but laud praise onto the Brotherhood of Steel, since they commit acts that Three Dog considers "heinous" judging by his reaction to you (you're a "scumbag" for killing a homicidal ghoul, but it's okay for the BoS to take pot-shots at every ghoul they meet), and yet he doesn't care. So he's not really telling the "truth like it is", he's just exaggerating the chivalry of the organization that's protecting his sorry ass. He also likes to spout crap without verifying whether it's true or not. I realize this is a game mechanic, but the fact it's part of his dialogue means it has to be considered from a story perspective. Accusing someone of nuking a populated town is a serious accusation, and Three Dog will do so just because you were "sighted" around Tenpenny Tower. So much for the truth and the facts -- sometimes he's got the truth, but never the facts to back it up.

Also, if you happen to play an evil character, then he's not really inspiring anyone with his "good fight" if he's spending most of his radio time reminding everyone that there's an unstoppable psychopath running around that will probably kill them all. tongue.gif And given that the Vault 101 dweller is more influential than the Brotherhood far enough into the game, he would be implying that evil and chaos can succeed where "good" and order fail. Really raises the spirits.

His request for you to fix his reception was apalling on many levels; a 19-year-old kid fresh out of an isolated Vault with little to no experience in the wastes is trying to find his dad --- what does Three Dog do? Sends the kid on what's the equivilant of a suicide mission just to get the vague info of James heading to Rivet City. Why couldn't one of those Brotherhood lackeys do it? He could just brag about how awesome and good they are twice as much and advertise their recruitment opportunities so that they can bolster their dwindling numbers. But no... it's got to be the 19-year-old pampered vault kid. And if you happen to disagree with him, then you are forced to come off as an ignorant, selfish brat with no concept of patience.

I like his replacement though; says a few short words and gets right into the music. No propoganda, no obnoxious self-righteous attitude, just music. And the occasional reminder that you did real good in the word by killing off a loony as intent on indoctrination as the main baddies.

I kind've wished that I could hook him up with Star Paladin Cross. Given that they're both judgemental, self-righteous morons who think that you exist only to get pushed around by the "real" saints (a.k.a Three Dog and Lyons), they would've made for a great couple.